SGOTM5 - Team tao

[Furiey]

450 AD (Turn 0): Change Moscow to Knight and mm for Scientist; get ROP with Japan so that we can get to Oka without having to ship troops in and will be ready to attack Japan when it expires. Press button.

IBT: Spain will graciously give us their WM for our WM and Theology – I decline this amazing offer.

460 AD (Turn 1): Workers by Paris road; Iroquois Worker from island into Galley; Japanese Galley by island.

IBT: Egyptians talk, they want Chivalry, they are the only civ without it so take their 49 gold and WM before someone else does.

470 AD (Turn 2): Workers move to new spot to road, land Iroquois worker near Moscow, realise I should have taken him to the Paris area; upgrade Horse on Iron.

IBT: Aztecs and France sign alliance against Spain.

480 AD (Turn 3): Moscow: Knight -> Knight; put 1 Knight back on Iron, 1 stays in Moscow; Education is now available, Egypt still has no gold, but has managed to gain both Theology and Invention!

IBT: Americans start Leonardo’s

490 AD (Turn 4): Workers work; 4 Civs now have Education, but we still can’t afford Invention, Shaka for example wants WM, 189 gold and 15gpt for it!

IBT: England and France sign alliance against Spain; Egyptians start Sistine Chapel.

500 AD (Turn 5): We still can’t afford Invention, even if we offer France an alliance against the Spanish.

IBT: Liz demands TM and 28 gold. I tell her where to go and she does.

510 AD (Turn 6): Tours: Barracks -> Worker

IBT: American Galley approaches island

520 AD (Turn 7): Moscow: Knight -> Knight; mm Tours to grow in 1, Worker in 1 with growth; move 2 Knights towards Oka, Nagoya is now pop 2.

IBT: $%*!£*%$ . Paris flips to the French (we lose a couple of Axemen there).

530 AD (Turn 8): Tours: Worker -> Pike (won’t be finished for a long time and can easily be changed); upgrade a couple of Horsemen in Tours; start to bring Workers back from around Paris.

IBT: Joan insists we leave the Paris area, rather than destroy our reputation I agree.

540 AD (Turn 9): Knights move past Nagoya and note the 3/3 Spear defending; Spanish have founded another town on the other side of our island; take 1 Horseman back to Moscow.

IBT: Japan and Iroquois make Peace; Indians start Leonardo’s

550 AD (Turn 10): Probably should have waited but attack Oka with Knights – 1st defeats Vet Spear and is promoted, 2nd loses to Regular Spear, redlining it. Upgrade Horse in Moscow; Workers are unmoved

Treasury: 62 gold, +18 gpt, Invention in 27 (0%)

Post-turn: Thoroughly depressed about this set of turns. Paris flipping obviously cramps our plans a little. So what to do now – plan for FP in Tours instead? If so will need to stop the forest chop. Is it still Japan next? Another go at France once our Peace Treaty expires? Spain and take the city near Moscow? And Oka, 1/3 Spear defending, raze it and peace with Iroquois or keep it? I’m beginning to feel if we don’t get more cities soon we will drop too far behind.

Zwingli (up next)
TedJackson
tao
Demiurge
Furiey (just played)

The Save

 

[tao]

Yes, we suffered a significant set-back. IMHO all hopes for a laurel are gone. We have to see that we win this game now.

I think we have 3 main alternatives:

1. In 4 turns attack Paris again. We might take it, but can we hold it? Our axemen have to raze Cherbourg to make Joan willing to talk peace soon!
2. Attack India and build a home base before attacking on the other continent again (Japan?).
3. Go directly for Japan next.

I'm sort of undecided between 1 and 2.

PS: Create a taxman in Moscow this turn and set lux to 10%.

 

[Furiey]

Should have done this before, Paris just before it flipped. Just a guess at the culture relative Civ cultures from the histograph - I haven't pixel counted or anything, not enough time, late for work as it is. Sensitivity: 0.1 on the relative cultures makes 1 difference to the garrison. The no. tile under AI influence is more dramatic, if they were all under our influence a garrison of 2 would be enough.

 

[Zwingli]

Got it, and will see if I can improve the situation. I will probably at least start prebuilding the FP somewhere, since even a poorly placed FP is much better than none in our current condition.

 

[Zwingli]

550 AD (0)
Trade maps for enough gold to upgrade 2 horsemen

560 AD (1)
Start building catapults in Moscow, and kill 2 jaguar warriors at Tours.

IBT- Arabs extort 21g.

570 AD (2)
Sell maps for enough gold to upgrade 1 horse (recover our gold from the Arabs).


580 AD (3)
Set up to capture Paris next turn, chain a couple more units to Tours and begin moving the stranded axemen toward this front.

590 AD (4)
Cancel peace with France.
We capture Paris + 2 workers at no cost, but lose a knight killing an Iroquois knight. The courthouse is still intact inside Paris, so the city begins the FP prebuild again.

IBT- No counterattack.

600 AD (5)
Consolidate our hold on Paris, and begin shipping catapults over.

610 AD (6)
Lose an elite horse killing a longbow, then lose a knight killing 2 Iroquois knights.

IBT- Fend off another French knight in defense.

620 AD (7)
Kill 2 iroquois knights and 1 french knight at no cost using catapult backup.

IBT- Our redlined axeman fends off an archer

630 AD (8)
Kill 1 Iroquois axeman and 1 longbow at no cost with the aid of catapults.

640 AD (9)
Move a stack of knights into position to attack Chartes. Sell maps around for extra gold.

IBT- 2 of our catapults are captured by an Iroquois knight.

650 AD (10)
Bombard the Iroquois knight with our remaining catapults, finish it off, and recapture our catapults.

We capture Chartes at a cost of 1 knight cutting off the French iron supply (5 resistors). The culture pressure on Paris has greatly diminished, and it is probably possible to prevent another flip with sufficient garrison.

Post-Turn
I leave diplomacy open and several units unmoved because there is a strategic decision to be made. We can get Education for peace with France and prosecute war with the Iroquois, or can pay for peace with the Iroquois and continue to make gains in France. We have captured the French iron supply, so their counterattacks will be weakening if we don't give them time to recover, but we could really use the help on technology.

 

[tao]

Good fighting.

IMHO we should make peace with France, because we have a number of wounded units in the open and Iroquois and Aztecs approaching to be dealt with. Fishing for Leader?

I would not get education, but invention, 90, wm from Joan. We don't want to build universities, etc. and might want to keep the option to capture The Great Library (which is in Tenochtitlan and the Aztecs are relatively weak, because trapped in the jungle).

IMHO we should merge our 2 native workers into Paris next turn. And I would hurry a temple. And build 2 mines for Paris.

 

[Furiey]

Fantastic - a great result after my disasterous turns! No time for any flip calcs this morning, I'll do some tonight if it's not too late.

PS: The French have another supply of Iron by Marseille.

Flipcalc for Paris (with pixel counting for culture levels) is looking much better now that Chartres has taken the pressure off the boarders:

 

[Furiey]

Chartres however....

I can never remember whether with a city at this size only the 9 tiles count or not, and whether it's all tiles under AI influence, or just the Civ in question, so 3 cases here, but either way the numbers are not too good, and if we lose Chartres, the pressure is back on Paris. Oh yes, and if it riots, the probability of flipping doubles.

 

[Zwingli]

To minimize the flip chance of Chartes, we should make peace with France and pile all of the injured knights into the city, then temporarilly activate the happiness governor there. This will quell all the resisters in 1 turn without the risk of riot. Next, we should starve down the city as usual until there is only 1 French citizen. There is only 1 tile that will be occupied by French culture (Furiey's case #2) that can eventually be recovered with a temple making the flip chance quite managable. Unfortunately, I think flips are going to be a problem in this game since our palace is far from captured cities.

 

[tao]

I wasn't aware that "governor on" quells all resistors in 1 turn. Good to know if it proofs true.

We might also build 2-3 "cheap" pikes in Moscow (only 2 turns instead of 4 for knights) to increase our troops. I checked again and France is even willing to give some gpt for peace in addition to invention and wm and their gold.

Once we razed the Iroquois city on our continent (maybe better than keeping it to speed the FP build) Hia should be willing to give peace to our convenience. Don't forget to do some pillaging immediately before making peace; this always helps.

 

[Furiey]

I don't think it quells all in one turn, I think it stops the rioting when there is the situation that the city would riot as soon as a resistor is quelled. Think why we don't use it usually in a city - in normal circumstances we get one turn to see that there are more unhappy than happy citizens, the city governor though acts immediately, putting a citizen to a specialist in the IBT, losing one turn of production relative to control. In the rioting situation we do not get that one turn grace period, the city riots immediately and there is no opportunity for the human player to do anything about it - city governor to the rescue!

Our ROP with the Japanese must be about to expire, are they still a viable target or do we renew for another 20 turns?

 

[tao]

This is a draft of the team post for the 1st spoiler. Please feal free to comment:

We started by hitting F10 and learning about 15 other civs. With 25% land, this should be crowded.

Being in the middle of nothing, we had to explore. Given 3 mountains in 3 directions, we started by sending the scout SE and the worker W. The settler waited for reports. Soon the scout reported wheat and fish and furs and the settler started moving. Moscow was established 3650BC and built a warrior and granary next to grow our one and only city.

We researched pottery, wheel (to build chariots), writing, map making, col, hbr. Huts gave us ceremonial burial, mysticism, warrior code. They also gave us the money to spend on our research.

Soon we started wondering because only barbarians appeared, but no foreign civ.

Moscow built temple (2390BC), Colossus(1400BC), Great Lighthouse(825BC) and was pop 12 in 1250BC with 16 spt and 28cpt while still in despotism.

The Lighthouse delayed the time till the 1st galley set sail to 750BC, followed by 2 more after 2 and 4 turns.

Our 3 galleys contacted the Iroquois , Spanish, and Japanese in 530BC, Egypt 510BC. We started a fast and furious trading round, getting all techs, contacts, maps, and treasures of the AIs. This put us in the Middle Ages and of course (1.29) we got free monotheism. Since we also learned monarchy, we revolted and after 3 turns of anarchy established monarchy. We decided on attacking the southwestern continent where The Pyramids were under construction, but the actual fighting only started way into the Middle Ages.

We had a combined force of horsemen (we used them to kill the barbs) and warrior/swords.

We had no problem catching up in techs, which was also eased because we had 3 galleys contacting different civs at the same time.

Not having Great Leaders to hurry the Forbidden Palace takes a random element from the game and I think this to be positive.

Without having made an in-depth comparision of the 3 starting positions, ours is very nice because it allows micro-management for shields, food, and commerce, depending on need.

 

[Furiey]

That seems to be about it, after all, all the fighting and problems started after that point.

 

[Zwingli]

The spoiler looks quite good. As for the comment on quelling resistance, I was referring to the fact that each unit neutralizes 1 resisting citizen when you are at peace with the mother country. By moving 5 knights into Chartes resistance will end next turn, but might cause a riot due to "overcrowded" unhappiness without the governor activated.

 

[tao]

Since TedJackson did not post his got-it and also hasn't been on-line for a couple of days, he is skipped and I played the next turns:

0: 650AD: move knights & catapults to Chartres; worker, eqworker to Paris, start changing Paris irrigation to mines; move galleys, move 2 knights in Japanese territories towards Oka, build road in the west
make peace with France for invention, 90g, 6gpt, wm
switch Tours to courthouse, hurry temple in Paris for 160g, set governor to manage citizen moods in Chartres; create scientist in Paris for invention, switch Moscow to pike and mm for gold
give Spain theology for ma vs. America and Ferdinand turns polite

IBT Spain found Pamplone NW of Moscow, we renew our ROP with Japan for 1g
our 2 axemen are killed by Iroquois knights, 3 Aztec archers move towards Chartres

1: 660AD: Paris b temple s cathedral, Moscow b pike s knight, we quell 4 of 5 resistors in Chartres; merge 2 workers into Paris
elite axe kills Iro knight, 3/4 knight kills Iro 1/3 knight,
axe kills Aztec archer and elitizes, 3/4 knight kills Aztec archer and elitizes, 3/5 knight kills last remaining Aztec archer; Aztecs are willing to talk peace, but not yet
join worker and eqworker to Paris, move knights towards Oka
mm Chartres to starvation, 3 shields

IBT 2 more Aztec archers and 1 Iro knight appear

2: 670AD: elite axe kills Aztec archer, catapults take 1 hp of 3/3 Iro knight, 4/5 knight finishes job, 3/5 knight kills Aztec archer, 3/4 knight kills last remaining Aztec archer in French territory
elite knight kills 3/3 spear in Oka without damage and waits for next kill next turn; knight from Moscow kills western barb

IBT Joan ask our knight to leave and we say yes, Arabs start Copernicus'

3: 680AD: knight gets 25g from barb camp
elite knight kills 3/3 spear in Oka, 4/4 knight kills 3/3 spear, we conquer Oka and sink Iro galley; decide to raze it to not increase corruption
hurry temple in Chartres

IBT France and Spain sign peace, England and Spain sign peace, France starts Copernicus'
Spanish spear and settler land on our ship cape

4: 690AD: galley brings 2 Oka winners towards Paris; some movements, some mm
a number of AIs know gunpowder (not Iroquois)

IBT Spain founds Casa del Bamr-pido on our landing site

5: 700AD: Moscow b knight s pike
catapults redline Iro archer at Chartres, elite axe kills

IBT Spanish settler west of Moscow (we have to protect our iron); Japanese settler towards former Oka site

6: 710AD: elite knight kills Iro 3/3 in French territory; ship-chain 2 knights to Chartres

7: 720AD: Moscow b pike s knight; zzz

IBT Kyoto builds Leonardo's; Japan is definitely on the target list!

8: 730AD: Chartres culture expands, but we cannot reach Grand River in 1 turn
catapults bring 4/4 knight to 2/4 and elite axe kills; again no Leader
5 knights move towards Grand River

IBT cascade to Copernicus's

9: 740AD: we attack Grand River
5/5 knight kills 3/3 pike -> 3/5
4/5 knight kills 3/3 spear -> 1/5 and conquers Grand River ( 4 resistors, activate governor)
move into Grand River; move workers to build roads to Chartres
kill barb in the west
some mm in our cities
we are no longer last in Firaxis score

10: 750AD: 25g from barb camp; move workers, units, ship-chain knight to Chartres

Firaxis 177, Jason 116

post-turn-thoughts:
10 elite wins, no Leader; it would be so nice to have a knight army now.
5 of the 10(?) towns we need for the Forbidden Palace.
We made some good progress against the Iroquois; we now have taken away their horses and if we can get Tonawanda (raze it or keep it as a stepping stone to Salamanca), we also have wines after a temple in Grand River.
Tours has its courthouse in 2 turns and then need to build garrisons (its culture will also expand next turn). Once we have connected Grand River (fast on the grasland, short on the hills), we can improve its terrain.
We haven't seen any Aztecs lately; if knights appear, we should make peace IMHO. Or if we can get a good deal.
And let's hope that the French do not attack us.
And look at Kyoto; if/once we get it and have the Forbidden Palace, we will be unstoppable.

Demiurge (up next)
Furiey
Zwingli
TedJackson (skipped)
tao (just played)

 

[Furiey]

We are definitely making progress now and looking at Kyoto how many cities before we can build the Forbidden Palace? (edit: tao's already mentioned 10).

Paris is looking much more stable now, we mustn't forget Tours though. We must soon be approaching the point with Tours where we have more local culture, the flip probability will halve then.

 

[Furiey]

Grand River we will have to watch (and Tonawanda if we get that).

edit: I notice Iroquois now have Gunpowder.

 

[tao]

Grand River we will have to watch (and Tonawanda if we get that).

edit: I notice Iroquois now have Gunpowder.

The question is how fast we can get Tonawanda AND Salamanca. If we manage to conquer them before the Iroquois have muskets, we are a big step ahead. IIRC Salamanca has The Hanging Gardens and that would be a nice push towards wltkd on this continent. And it brings us closer to the Japanese.

IMHO we should continue to push ahead on this continent first, while resistance is relatively slow. We can "always" conquer the Spanish or Japanese settlements near Moscow to reach the limit (10?) enabling the Forbidden Palace.

I see a trade-off: having "close-to-Moscow-cities" would increase our home production, but they are low in food and thus low in growth. Therefore it might be better to push the Iroquois first to their knees. Tours will soon contribute relatively low-cost units (IMHO pikes, maybe longbows) primarily for mp.

The problems I see are two-fold: France is strong and will trigger its Golden Age in the next war with their musketeers. We should delay the confrontation with them until we are stronger. If war breaks out, we once again have to go after their (currently 1, hopefully soon 2) towns on the mountain island to soften them up.

The northern neighbour Arabia is also very inconvenient due to their fast UU (IIRC 3 movement). We should ally with either Arabs or France, if one of them declares on us.

Regrettably, there is still no settlement on the silks island south of Moscow. Having a city there would nicely fit in our territory. And because of the closeness to Moscow, IMHO we will not even have to starve it down to pop 1, once we conquer it.

 

[Furiey]

I have been thinking about this overnight, and continuing to move on the iroquois will put us in a better position to take on Japan next. Not capturing settlements near Moscow has the added advantage of keeping corruption low once we get the forbidden palace in Paris - I know there is an exploit which is banned - yet here we are in a position where our palace is going to be a long way from our empire because of the shape of the game, not because we have deliberately jumped it to a remote location.

edit: I'm amazed how long it's taking for someone to settle those silks - they know they're there after all, yet they would rather settle in tundra rather than on silks - something we don't know about yet in the tundra perhaps?

 

[Demiurge]

Got it. Unfortunately this is one of the busiest times of year for me. Should be able to squeeze it in tomorrow, but maybe not until Sunday.