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SGOTM5 - Team tao

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession GOTM (SGOTM)' started by mad-bax, Nov 20, 2004.

  1. Demiurge

    Demiurge Warlord

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Ohio, U.S.A.
    750 ad (pre-turn)
    After looking through the civs it looks like some trading could gain us the three techs we know we're currently lacking for very little cost.
    Start trade with 297 gold and +36 gpt
    Keltoi are up gunpowder and down printing press and education
    Buy gunpowder off Keltoi for 297 gold, 14 gpt and WM
    Sell gunpowder to Japan for 25 gold and education
    Now that we have education we see that several civs are up astronomy as well
    Sell gunpowder to England for 20 gold, printing press and WM
    Sell printing press and education to Keltoi for 305 gold, WM and 6 gpt
    Sell WM around for some gold
    We are now down astronomy, should be able to get it pointy stick from Iroquois
    End trade with 363 gold and +28 gpt. All told the techs will cost us 96 gold
    Set research to chemistry with scientist in Tours
    We have no saltpeter on our island. Iroquois do have it in one city Kanawake. Remote, pop 2 city. Maybe we can get it in peace


    760 ad (turn 1)
    Moscow builds knight < next
    Reposition some troops and galleys

    IBT: Iroquois knight near Paris

    770 ad (turn 2)
    Tours builds courthouse < pikeman
    Kill Iroquois knight with elite axeman
    6 knights advance on Tonawanda

    IBT: Iroquios archer attacks knight stack, dies

    780 ad (turn 3)
    2 elite knights attack Tonawanda capture it with no losses. Capture one worker, 1 gold
    Create taxmen in Grand River to starve, no longer resisting
    Set governor, temple in Tonawanda
    Chain one knight over
    Iroquois will now give astronomy for peace

    IBT: Calcutta completes Copernicus

    790 ad (turn 4)
    Attack Iroquois knight, losing one knight, kill with second
    Knights fortify to heal
    Workers move to connect Tonawanda

    IBT: Iroquois archer and knight die attacking knights protecting workers, promoting one to elite. Aztecs offer peace straight up, decline

    800 ad (turn 5)
    Moscow builds knight < next
    Grand River at pop 1, MM for growth

    810 ad (turn 6)
    Tours builds pike < next
    Chain over 2 knights
    8 knights descend on Salamanca
    Workers connect Tonawanda, retreat to safer territory

    820 ad (turn 7)
    Attack Salamanca with 7 knights. 3 elite victories, one vet knight loss, take city with reinforcement from Tours, gaining hanging gardens
    Set governor in Salamanca
    MM Tonawanda for taxmen, scientist
    Arabs now only civ knowing banking
    Iroquois will now give 1 city, astronomy and 60 gold for peace. Avoid doing it yet in hopes that we can get more cities from them to enable our FP build.
    Americans settled silk island
    We now have extra wines to trade but avoid doing so in case Salamanca flips
    Sell WM around for some change
    Set temple in Salmanca

    830 ad (turn 8)
    Shuffle troops for healing

    IBT: 2 Iroquois archers approach Salamanca

    840 ad (turn 9)
    Moscow builds knight < next
    Tonawanda pop 1, MM for growth
    2 elite knights kill 2 Iroquois archers
    Create scientist in Tours

    IBT: Iroquois knight approaches Salamanca

    850 ad (turn 10)
    Tours builds pike < next
    Chain 1 knight to new world
    Elite knight kills Iroquois knight

    Post-turn:
    The Iroquois will give us peace but as easily as their cities are falling I would keep pushing so we can build the FP. There was 1 pike and 6 spearmen in Salamanca when I took it. Half the knights in Salamanca have used partial moves this turn and a couple need one turn to heal. Keep in mind when considering peace with the Iroquois that Kanawake has the only source of saltpeter that the Iroquois posses.

    Furiey (up next)
    Zwingli
    TedJackson
    tao
    Demiurge (just played)
     
  2. Furiey

    Furiey No Longer Just Lurking

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    Got it, as much as I would like to play now rather than what I'm doing, I must finish, so will not likely be able to play until tomorrow.

    So we have 10 turns to get enough cities to build the Forbidden Palace, or we build the Heroic Epic in Paris - I'd better get conquering then! Now that Salamanca has stopped resisting, the governor can come off and the citizens can go on a starvation diet, providing a Scientist and Taxmen in the process, this will enable Tours to come off scientist duty and build Pikes in 3 rather than 4 turns. Good to see that the silks have finally been settled, and by someone we're at war with, that city will hopefully make up one of the extra we need if it grows in time. Our island is looking pretty full now. Now I must not get distracted any more at the moment or I'll never finish what I'm doing.

    Kanawake is not in a particularly convienient position.
     
  3. Demiurge

    Demiurge Warlord

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    We can always switch the heroic epic to a palace pre-build if needed but I don't think we'll need to. You're in a position to push forward fairly quickly I think. There were only two defenders in Tonawanda and I would wager you won't see many more in the existing Iroquois cities now that we took Salamanca. If we hit them hard and fast taking a few more cities we should be able to get all but the capitol for peace.
     
  4. Demiurge

    Demiurge Warlord

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    Something I forgot to mention and you might consider is rushng a couple of improvements with our extra cash. Maybe a temple in Tonawanda and an aqueduct in Tours?
     
  5. Furiey

    Furiey No Longer Just Lurking

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    I had wondered about some rushes, those ex Iroq cities are not going to produce anything much until they grow and we get the Frobidden Palace up and running. Slamanca is going to grow like mad once allowed to again, we can use that to repopulate the slower growing cities.

    edit - looks like we can drop lux to 10% for a bit at least now we have the wines. Arrrgh - getting distracted again!
     
  6. Furiey

    Furiey No Longer Just Lurking

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    Sorry everyone, but it's been a bad day at work, I have not been able to play tonight - it'll have to be tomorrow. I have looked at a few flip probabilities though and Salamanca currently has more than 25% chance of flipping in 10 turns. The large population (I've already put it on starvation) and the tiles still under Iroquois control are what does it. Rushing a Temple would start to relieve the pressure, but so would capturing Allegheny and Oil Springs. Taking Mauch Chunk removes their final source of Iron.

    Kahnawake - we could get this in a peace deal now, along with Chaunawaga. Other cities they'll surrender are Tyendenaga and St Regis, although only singularly. They will not throw in Astronomy with Kahnawake yet.
     
  7. Demiurge

    Demiurge Warlord

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    This from Mathilda in the "Are succession games too easy thread:
    They have set the bar at somewhere after 1450 ad. Their last save posted in the submisssions list. Since the final save will not show up until later, they must have finished somewhere between 1450 and 1550 ad.
     
  8. Furiey

    Furiey No Longer Just Lurking

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    I am at turn 3, and unfortunately will not be able to finish tonight - I'll do so tommorrow.

    You will be pleased to hear that the Forbidden Palace is due in 7 turns! I have also taken Allegheny (2 defenders) - the new capitol is Niagra Falls, there is a regular Musket in Maunch Chunk. I've lost a couple of knights to an Archer and Knight, and another to a Spear taking Allegheny. I've picked off several Axemen that left Allegheny before I took it. There was no sign of any Iroquois troops in the last IBT. Iroquois will give Khaunawaga, Caughnawaga and Astronomy, or Khaunawaga, Astronomy and Music Theory for Peace.
     
  9. Zwingli

    Zwingli Prince

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    I would definitely take a city rather than Music Theory as we are very unlikely to build a wonder. We should probably stay at war with the Iroquois until we are ready to go after Japan.
     
  10. tao

    tao Deity

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    I will be gone from the 23rd till the 27th. But I don't suppose this to create a problem looking at our current pace. ;)

    Having just finished gotm38, I looked at the save and Niagara Falls would give us dyes: very good for happiness (2 faces in Moscow with the market).

    The Forbidden Palace will make all our cities productive, because of the "exploit" in the game. But since we did not move the Palace to a remote location nor use a Great Leader to hurry it, IMHO it will not be exploitive. It might even be best to conquer no other cities near Moscow at all.

    In other words: continue to conquer. It might be best to NOT put a lot of units in cities where they are lost in case of a flip, but to position them next to it.

    And Merry Christmas to all of you!
     
  11. Furiey

    Furiey No Longer Just Lurking

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    850 AD (Turn 0): Take Tours of Scientist duty to give Pike in 3; put Salamanca on starvation with a scientist and couple of taxmen, along with a load of entertainers just to ensure it doesn’t riot as it starves; drop lux to 10%; check flipcalcs; decide we need to relieve the pressure on Salamanca’s borders as well as reducing pop; move; healthy unused knights towards Allegheny/Mauch Chunk – Allegheny has a Regular Pike, Mauch Chunk a Regular Musket :( ; decide to take both belt and braces approach to relieve pressure on Salamanca – it might prove more difficult to take cities if Muskets are appearing so rush Temple for 228 gold. Flip probability for the next turn is 3.04% for 9, 3.64% for 6 and 4.24% for 3 garrison, move another 3 knights forward, one stops short – not quite having 1 full movement point left – I should have been more careful. Press button

    IBT: Japanese want to renew the ROP deal for which they want 2 gold, we’re likely to want to start on Japan within 20 turns so I decline; lose the lone knight to an Iroq Archer :( ; Joan wants to renew our Peace Treaty – I accept; Aztecs want Peace but will only give 15 gold and 2gpt – not Astronomy; I decline.

    860 AD (Turn 1): Salamanca Temple -> Worker (placeholder) and starves, reset workers to continue starving, 1 scientist, rest taxmen; Elite Knight kills Archer that took our Knight; Capture Allegheny (contained 1 reg Pike, 1 reg Spear) losing 1 Knight to the Spear, set Governor; 4 resistors; Niagra Falls is the new capitol – bit surprised it went there; check flipcalcs – Salamanca is looking a bit better, Allegheny is about how Salamanca was; MM Moscow for commerce, Knight in 2; kill a further Archer and 2 Axemen who came from Allegheny with the other 3 knights who had moved towards Munch Chunk; Iroquois will give nothing more for Peace yet, so wait.4 Elite victories.

    IBT: Iroq Knight kills one of our Elites by Allegheny; We have triggered the Forbidden Palace!; Salamanca and Allegheny starve and a resistor is quelled in Allegheny; Americans start JS Bach’s.

    870 AD (Turn 2): Change Paris to Forbidden Palace due in 8; reset Salamanca to starve etc; pick off lone Iroq knight that killed ours with Elite, knight need to heal though so leave them in Salamanca and Allegheny to do so. Pretty much all the Civs have music theory – they’ll all soon be building JS Bach.

    IBT: Iroquois want Peace, they will give Kahnawake, Chaughnaga and Astronomy, I decline for now; French, Vikings, Zulu and Indians start JS Bach; no Iroquois spotted.

    880 AD (Turn 3): Moscow: Knight -> Knight; Chartres: Pike -> Barracks; Salamanca and Allegheny starve and another resistor is quelled; reset Salamanca to starve etc; Iroquois will give Kahnawake, Caughnawaga and Astronomy, or Kahnawake, Astronomy and Music Theory for Peace.
    Getting too late, I have to stop for the night.
    Move 3 Elite Knights towards Niagara Falls – Pike defends.

    IBT: French Longbow approaches border and Worker moves away; Arabs land Settler Cataphract pair on our home island, Egyptians & Arabs start JS Bach; Salamanca and Allegheny starve.

    890 AD (Turn 4): Capture Niagara Falls losing 1 Elite Knight (2 Pike defending, 4 resistors) I’m moving up the Catapults, but they’re slow; chain a Knight over from Moscow. We’re losing Knights faster than we can replace them. Just noticed – France have captured Centralia, they’re not at War, it must have flipped. Rush Aqueduct in Tours; move Knights towards Oil Springs, the new Iroquois capitol.

    IBT: Arabs demand Territory map and 39 gold, I pay – we need another 6 turns for the Forbidden Palace, until then our forces are too stretched; Arabs found Yamama

    900 AD (Turn 5): Salamanca and Allegheny starve and a resistor is quelled, Salamanca expands – no more border pressure; Tours: Aqueduct -> Pike; Allegheny resistors are quelled, make them taxmen to keep starving; 2 Resistors are quelled in Niagara Falls; Oil Springs is defended by a regular Spear, it still defeats our Elite Knight though, the second spear falls to our next knight, but no more knights can reach; move catapults closer.

    IBT: Iroquois Longbow comes N out of Satsuma.

    910 AD (Turn 6): Salamanca and Allegheny starve, resistance ends in Niagara falls and set to starve; Iroqouis have just built a Pike in Oil Springs, but it, along with the obstinate Spear from last time fall to our Veteran knights for no losses but not promotions; gain a Japanese Worker along with the city; Iroquois will give the 3 northern cities and Astronomy for Peace, but wait; rush Temple in Niagara Falls to claim Dyes ASAP (no culture in Satsuma yet);

    IBT: Iroq Longbow runs away; Egyptians start Magellan’s; English settle near Moscow – our island is now getting crowded;

    920 AD (Turn 7): Moscow: Knight -> Knight; Niagara Falls, Allegheny and Salamanca starve; Niagara Falls: Temple -> Pike; shuffle Knights to allow those in Oil Springs to heal.

    IBT: Zzzzz

    930 AD (Turn 8): Salamanca, Allegheny and Niagara Falls starve; quell a resistor in Oil Springs; Catapults and Knights can move in towards Maunch Chunk next turn, they need to heal for now. Chemistry is now available from several Civs, as we will have the Forbidden Palace and will probably make peace with the Iroquois very soon, I delay trading – they seem to want an awful lot for the techs anyway.

    IBT: a Knight (Aztec) appears by Niagara Falls and Longbow (Iroquois) by Oil Springs

    940 AD (Turn 9): Tours: Pike -> Pike; Salamanca etc starve; the Longbow by Oil Springs has vanished :confused: ; the Astec Knight is a nuisance – decide to make Peace (only get some gold) so we can focus off finishing the Iroquois and then the Japanese (they have connected the Iron by Osaka however); Move some Knights and Catapults in by Maunch Chunk.

    IBT: Americans want 100 gold for Peace, I decline, we may well want those silks; Keltoi and English start JS Bach

    950 AD (Turn 10): Paris: Forbidden Palace -> Barracks; Salamanca etc starve; resistance in Oil Springs ends; Bombard Maunch Chunk to no effect, leave Knights unmoved for the next player to attack or wait;

    Treasury: 540 gold, +80 gpt, Chemistry in 20 (0%)

    Post-turn: the scientist is in Allegheny; the French Worker has just stepped in to our territory; Iroquois will give the 3 northern cities and Astronomy for Peace – take Maunch Chunk first perhaps, there are several techs out there for trading, there’s an American galley in the middle of the Ocean E of Cherbourg; there’s a native Worker in Grand river unmoved, I’d run out of things to do with him around Moscow and was going to join him to a city; Salamanca needs it’s build changing from Worker to something else – the Forbidden Palace has really improved our production! Niagara Falls will expand over the Dyes next turn, but they will need connecting – we may have to wait until peace for that.

    Zwingli (up next)
    TedJackson
    tao
    Demiurge
    Furiey (just played)

    The Save

    I shall also be away from late 24th to 27th so

    Happy Christmas and a Very Merry New Year!
     
  12. Zwingli

    Zwingli Prince

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    Got it, but it looks like there's no point in rushing :). Catapults do tend to be ineffective on offense, and would probably be better used as a safeguard against French or Arab attack.
     
  13. Furiey

    Furiey No Longer Just Lurking

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    I was hopeful that with 4 Catapults I might get just one hit to knock the Musket down a little, although we should now be able to replace the lost Knights a little quicker than we could. There have been only 2 defenders in each of the cities I took, so hopefully that is the only Musket. Their cities to the S are cut off from access to the Saltpetre now.
     
  14. Zwingli

    Zwingli Prince

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    I had to rush these turns somewhat, but it was either get them out tonight or get them out Monday night. Despite this, I think we are still in good shape :)

    950 AD (0)
    Hold off on attacking Grand River. Switch some of the builds to libraries and begin research on Chemistry since it appears we are strong enough to start some reseach.

    IBT- Arabia declares war on France. :)

    960 AD (1)
    Attack Grand River and take it for no casualties from two muskets and a spear. Decide to push for Satsuma to get a better rally point against Japan.

    970 AD (2)
    Move knights toward Satsuma.

    980 AD (3)
    Attack and take Satsuma without losses, then take Astronomy, Music Theory, and 3 northern desert cities for peace.
    Lose 1 axeman killing a landed American knight.

    IBT- France and Arabia fight in our new northern territory. It appears that Arabia has the early upper hand with their fast knight UU.

    990 AD (4)
    Move/heal knights in preparation for the Japanese offensive.

    Chemistry is now well known, so purchase from the Vikings (safe trade route) for 17gpt + wines. In ensuing trades, we net Navigation, Banking, 150g, and the complete WM.
    Research is started on Metallurgy.

    1000 AD (5)
    Make peace with America on even terms.
    Cancel Peace with Japan and move a stack of knights against Osaka.

    IBT- A longbow makes one of our knights retreat, but the redlined knight goes on to defeat a second longbow.

    1010 AD (6)
    Take Osaka from 2 spearmen at no cost cutting off Japanese horses and iron. We also destroy 2 longbows in the open.

    1020 AD (7)
    Kill another longbow and heal the wounded knights.

    IBT- France appears to be turning the tide against Arabia, retaking Grenoble and finishing off several Anzars.

    1030 AD (8)
    Advance toward Kyoto, which is defended by a freshly built, unfortified Samurai (hopefully their last)

    1040 AD (9)
    Send a second group of knights toward Kyoto to set up for the capital siege.

    1050 AD (10)
    Bombard and kill an additional longbow.

    Post-Turn
    Currently 8 knights are unmoved and in position to attack Kyoto. Kyoto is size 12 on a hill, so this might not be enough depending on how many Samurai/spearmen are in the city. Next turn 1 additional knight can be brought into action, and a couple more knights won't have to attack across the river. We will most likely have to take at least 1 more town after Kyoto to keep the prized city from fipping.



    TedJackson (next)
    tao
    Demiurge
    Furiey
    Zwingli
     
  15. tao

    tao Deity

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    It looks like TedJackson is missing again. I will go on a hiking trip till Thursday and if he hasn't done his turns till then, I will skip him and play.
     
  16. tao

    tao Deity

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    preturn: 1050AD: trade maps getting
    give Zulu wines, 1g for gems (more happiness, prevents wine extortion by Arabs)
    (in the city display, gems are shown as silks)
    change Niagara Falls library to knight (since we don't need the additional culture now), change Tonawanda market to knight (since it c an't grow beyond pop 6 without an aqueduct)
    hurry library in Oil Springs, set 90% science to get metallurgy in 6 instead of 7 turns
    move knights to wine hill near Tokyo/ wines avoiding attack across river; learn that Kagoshima is defended by spear(s)

    IBT Keltoi start Magellan's

    1: 1060AD: Moscow b knight s university due in 5 with mm; Oil Springs b library s axeman
    we attack Kyoto:
    2 vet knights die red-lining samurai who promotes to 2/5
    5/5 knight vs. 3/3 pike withdraws 1/4
    4/4 knight kills 4/4 spear ->2/4
    4/4 knight vs 4/4 spear withdraws 1/4
    5/5 knight kills 4/4 spear and Peter the Great appears :)
    5/5 knight kills 4/4 spear
    4/4 knight kills 2/5 samurai
    we are out of troops and Kyoto is still defended by a 4/4 spear and the 2/3 pike (at least) :(
    ship workers to new world, workers work, some mm
    0% lux, metallurgy still due in 5 at 90%

    2: 1070AD: Salamanca b library s worker, Mauch Chunk b library s axeman
    the libraries push metallurgy down to 3 turns at 80%
    our catapults move towards pike-defended Tokyo, our knights withdraw
    Peter builds army in Osaka
    Osaka hurries library

    IBT Zulu and Indians start Smith's Trading

    3: 1080AD: Osaka b library s knight; science down to 70%

    4: 1090AD: Salamanca b worker s next, Paris b knight s next;
    science down to 60%, mm some cities

    IBT Japan starts Bach's

    5: 1100AD: learn metallurgy start military tradition; we currently need 12 turns at break-even, but our research capability will rise as time proceeds. On a side-line, axeman kills spear in Tokyo.

    Now we will deal and start some wars to slow AI research down; I look at deals available, strength relative to us, map locations, etc. My idea is to conquer (most of) Japan, terminate Iroquois once the peace deal expires in 7 turns, build strength until our Golden Age starts and then roll over the Keltoi so fast that we don't have to starve all their cities down to size 1. Thus I act as follows:
    Aztecs give physics, 12g, wm for metallurgy.
    Egyt gives economics, wm for metallurgy.
    Iroquois give 23g, wm for banking.
    Keltoi, Aztecs, India, Egypt, Zulu give about 30g for wm trades.
    Declare war on India; Spain gives wm, 5, alliance for chemistry.
    Declare war on Egypt; establish embassy in Nidaros; Vikings give 10g, wm alliance for economics.
    Arabs give 2g for wm; 17g for 1gpt; establish embassy in Washington for 110g.
    America gives 11g, wm, alliances vs. India and Egypt for metallurgy.
    Set research to 20% to get cash for embassy with England.

    6: 1110AD: Salamanca b worker s knight; Moscow b university s knight; Chartres b knight s next; Kahnawake b library s musket.
    Moscow knight captures Indian worker; move army, knights towards Kyoto
    Establish embassy in London, declare war on Zulu; form alliance with Mongols; Mongols give 14g for banking; form alliance with England for metallurgy; England gives 5g form wm.

    IBT Aztecs, India sign ma vs. America, Aztecs declare war.
    Japanese longbow dies attacking our pike-protected catapults.

    7: 1120: Niagara Falls b knight s next, mm;
    We attack Kyoto: army kills pike, knight withdraws vs. spear, army kills spear, knight withdraws vs. spear, knight dies attacking longbow, and our attack stops again. :( :(

    IBT Aztecs and Arabs sign ma vs. France; Iroquois and Aztecs sign ma vs. America, Japan and Aztecs sign ma vs. America

    8: 1130AD: move troops

    9: 1140AD: Japan has iron again and Kyoto is now pike-defended; move knights on hills to avoid attack across river

    10: 1150AD: heal and move more troops; knight withdraws from attack on 3/3 spear in Nagoya; workers work.

    Summary:
    I am extremely unhappy on the twice failed attempt to conquer Kyoto. My guess is that it is now defended by at least 3 pikes. I can't find the Japanese trade for iron in the F4 screen. :confused:
    The worker on the iron hill is a look-out post for attempts to pillage this resource. I decided to build aqueducts to nor cripple our upcoming Golden Age by restricted growth.
    The only positive aspects are the formation of the army and the global waring going on.

    Demiurge (up next)
    Furiey
    Zwingli
    TedJackson (excused, skipped, skipped)
    tao (just played)

    I assume TedJackson to have dropped our. He was not online since December 10th.
     
  17. Furiey

    Furiey No Longer Just Lurking

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    Good about the leader, but then it appears we need an army just to defeat the spears/pikes in Kyoto. I suppose Knight dies attacking Longbow says it all. This is where Sun Tzu comes in as well, we have to kill the unit in one attack otherwise it just moves to the bottom of the stack to be healed ready for the next turn.

    Talking of luck, we don't seem to have much with keeping a 5th player.
     
  18. Demiurge

    Demiurge Warlord

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    Got it, will play tomorrow. Have a happy new year!
     
  19. Furiey

    Furiey No Longer Just Lurking

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    Had a look at the save - and I can't see where the Japanese are trading Iron either. Looking at who has Iron and some thoughts spring to mind (well, rise sluggishly to the surface is more like it at the moment ;) ) - do we get to see active trades when we are at war with both parties or do we need an Embassy with one of them? So counting Iron, Egypt, Zulu, Mongolds, English, Arabs and India have Iron to trade, we have Embassies with and are at peace with England, Mongols and Arabs (so if it was them we should know it) leaving Egypt, Zulu and India as the likely suspects, all of whom we are at War with and have no Embassy.

    Also if they have Iron from somewhere, that means Samurai :(. Not sure what to suggest to stand a better chance though, we just need an enormous stack of Knights.

    I have also been thinking about our only source of Saltpetre stuck up between the Arabs and France - we need to secure a second source of do what we must to protect this one as it would be embarrassing to lose Kahnawake and our Saltpetre just as our Golden Age and UU are upon us. At the moment, in a war with either Arabs or France this city would fall pretty quickly. The next closest source is SE of Orleans.
     
  20. Demiurge

    Demiurge Warlord

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    My deepest apologies for the delay but I have been unable to find time to play yet and I haven't even started GOTM 37! At this point I'm going to ask for a skip and hopefully things will taper off towards the end of this week and I can get involved again.
     

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