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SGOTM5 - Team tao

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession GOTM (SGOTM)' started by mad-bax, Nov 20, 2004.

  1. Furiey

    Furiey No Longer Just Lurking

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    OK, got it, I won't be able to play now (nearly midnight), hopefully tomorrow, but first day back at work so I'll have to see.
     
  2. Furiey

    Furiey No Longer Just Lurking

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    Sorry but it won't be tonight - tomorrow night shouldn't be a problem though.

    I'm not going to rush in to attack Kyoto. After 2 failed attempts I'm going to let that Army heal and get a good stack of knights before another. I want to make sure I have enough to do more than injure defenders that will heal for next turn.

    I'm still worrying about that Saltpetre - I was wondering if it was worth gifting the French something per turn to try and keep Joan sweet, pity it would take so long to get more dyes connected, unfortunately they have wine...
     
  3. Furiey

    Furiey No Longer Just Lurking

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    Up to turn 7 and have to stop for the night. We have just researched Military Tradition and start ToG, ToG and Magnetism are out there for Trade, but no one will trade them to us. We can't trade luxuries with the Arabs either, not sure why.

    I have 9 Knights that could attack Kyoto now (it has Samurai :( ), or 11 next turn or 13 and an almost healed Army on the following turn, but I must stop now for the night. Our first Cossack will be produced in Tours next turn, so thought it would be a good time to post an update anyway in case anyone wants to comment (comments appreciated). I'll finish tomorrow.
     
  4. tao

    tao Deity

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    Wouldn't it be better to upgrade enough knights (say about 6) before attacking Kyoto to keep losses at a minimum?

    And since (hopefully) we can wall over Japan with the cossacks, they should give us ToG for peace afterwards.

    But I'm at work and just guess .....
     
  5. Furiey

    Furiey No Longer Just Lurking

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    I had been wondering that myself (also while at work), set minimum research for long enough to get the gold, bring some Vets back for upgrade and then go back in - the Army will also be fully healed by then. I would have though we'd have had enough knights, but then I would have thought so the last 2 times. Better to make sure now than have another failure.
     
  6. Furiey

    Furiey No Longer Just Lurking

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    1150 AD (Turn 0): look around, press button.

    1160 AD (Turn 1): Salamanca: Worker>Worker; Tours: Knight>Knight; move new Knights down; fortify unfortified Knight by Kyoto; fortify Army and injured Knights to heal; withdraw Nagoya Knight to heal; mull over moving Catapults, decide to leave them and hopefully tempt more Japanese longbows to attack them. I notice that Cherbourg is now Arabic.

    IBT: Arabs and France sign peace; Arabs and Indians start Shakespeare’s; Indians start JS Bach’s.

    1170 AD (Turn 2): Tonawanda: Aquaduct>Knight; Magnetism is now available; Kyoto now has a Samurai :( ; Elite Knight kill a Japanese Longbow heading from Kyoto to Tokyo for no damage, but no leader either; consider trying to attack the Samurai, but at 25% chance of victory decide I’d just be throwing Knights away, the Army will have to heal. With luck they’ll attack us defending fortified on the hill; Knights move, Workers work.

    IBT: Iroquois declare War on the Spanish; French troops return to Orleans from the Arab front; Iroquois and Aztecs sign and Alliance against the French; Iroquois declare on the French, French start Shakespeare’s; Aztecs want an alliance against the French – I decline.

    1180 AD (Turn 3): Salamanca: Worker>Worker; Grand River: Aqueduct>Knight; Chartres: Knight>Musket;

    IBT: Spain and India make Peace (breaking our alliance, but we still have one with the Americans against India); Indians want straight Peace, unfortunately unless we want to kill our reputation I have no choice but to decline – Peace before Elephants hopefully though; French Knights enter our territory in the N on the way to the Aztecs/Iroquois I’m tempted to offer them an alliance against them, but we have undefended cities next to these Civs; Indians start Shakespeare’s.

    1190 AD (Turn 4): Paris: Knight>Knight; Moscow: Knight>Knight; change the Knight build in Osaka to Barracks due in 12 the Army is healing so slowly and our barracks cities are so far away; leave our Knights in Moscow as India can now focus on us; move couple more Knights next to Kyoto; move Catapults closer to Tokyo; Our Wines and 17gpt deal with Vikings has expired; look at selling the Wines to the Arabs, but we can’t trade luxes; can’t buy Magnetism either even with the extra gold and dropping research to 0%! As it would cancel the Great lighthouse, not sure we want it at the moment though.

    IBT: England and India sign an Alliance against America; England declares on America; Americans start Shakespeare’s; French Knights encroach further, I’m sure they’ll declare though if I demand they leave and we have too many undefended cities for that, so I don’t; Arabs start Newton’s; Indians start JS Bach’s;

    1200 AD (Turn 5): Salamanca: Worker>Worker; Allegheny: Knight>Musket; Theory of Gravity is now available for trade and already widely known, but no one will trade of gpt – I don’t think we’ve done anything to cause that?; Bombard Tokyo then realise the Pikeman is redlined! – I didn’t see anything attack it!;

    IBT: Zulu and England sign Peace; Japan and America sign Peace; French troops continue S past Salamanca; Arabs start Smiths; French complete JS Bach’s in Lyons; Keltoi start Magellan’s; Keltoi, English, Vikings start Smith’s; Zulu start Newton’s; Indians start Shakespeare’s.

    1210 AD (Turn 6): Niagara Falls: Knight>Knight; retreat Catapults so Pike can heal; Knights move; Workers work; a Frankish Axeman is visibly in Spanish territory near Moscow. Military Tradition in 1 and still no one will trade us Magnetism or ToG.

    IBT: Egyptians, Aztecs, Americans, Arabs start Smiths; Americans, Keltoi, Indians start Shakespeare’s;

    1220 AD (Turn 7): We research Military Tradition and start ToG; Our people want to build the Military Academy; Salamanca: Worker>Worker; move 2 more Knights in, I now have 9 that could attack Kyoto now, or 11 next turn or 13 and an almost healed Army on the following turn, but I must stop now for the night.
    I sleep on it, think some more at work, decide to upgrade some knights to Cossacks before attacking, then seeing the forums note tao has posted the same suggestion so:
    Rush Barracks in Osaka for 68 gold; withdraw Veteran Knights from Kyoto to upgrade next turn; drop research to minimum to get enough gold for the upgrade.

    IBT: Indian Jumbo spotted (7 turns of our alliance with America left); France kills an Iroquois Axeman in our territory; Iroquois and America sign peace; Arabic city of Makkah completes Smiths; Keltoi, English, Zulu start Shakespeare’s; Keltoi, Zulu start Newton’s.

    1230 AD (Turn 8): Osaka: Barracks>Cossack; Tours: Cossack>Cossack; Chartres: Musket>Musket; Paris and Tours flip probability is going up again, decide to leave the newly built Cossak in Tours; upgrade 6 Veteran and 1 Regular Knight in Osaka, and 2 Knights in Moscow; 3rd Moscow Knight dies redlining Regular Indian Axeman.

    IBT: Indian Jumbo comes out of nowhere and captures our worker on the Iron by Moscow; Arabs then demand Military Tradition :( oh boy. I do not want to give them this, but if they attack now we will lose our only source of saltpetre (the undefended Kahnawake), just as we are about to enter our Golden Age with our UU which needs it! I give in :mad: Aztec Knight kills healing French Knight; Egyptian city of Alexandria completes Magellan’s Voyage; Egyptians, Aztecs, Americans, Keltoi, Indians start Newton’s; Indians start Shakespeare’s and complete it in Delhi; America enters the Industrial Age (I see the cities change).

    1240 AD (Turn 9): Salamanca: Worker>Worker; Paris: Cossack>Cossack; Moscow: Cossack>Cossack (and MM so builds in 4); move 7 Cossacks in to Kyoto; Moscow Cossack defeats Jumbo and our Golden Age has begun :D ; 2nd Moscow Cossack kills redlined Axeman, 3rd dies attacking 3/3 Jumbo; upgrade 2 Pikemen in Moscow; go round cities MM for Golden Age.

    IBT: Jumbos move towards Moscow; French keep moving towards Iroquois.

    1250 AD (Turn 10): Maunch Chunk: Cossack>Cossack; Americans, French start Newton’s; catapults move to be upgraded (should have done that earlier); Army picks off Jap Longbow; Cossacks kill both Jumbos by Moscow; now for Kyoto:

    1st Vet Cossack kill Vet Samurai
    2nd Vet Cossack kills next and last Vet Samurai
    3rd Vet Cossack dies redlining and promoting a Vet Pike
    4th retreats leaving a vet Pike undamaged
    5th dies redlining another Pike
    6th retreats leaving a vet Pike undamaged
    Regular Cossack defeats Pike and Promotes
    Elite Knight kills vet Pike – regular now on top!
    Elite Knight retreats, Pike 2/3
    Veteran Knight kills 2/3 Pike
    Regular Knight kills 2/5 Pike
    Regular Knight kills 1/4 Pike
    And we capture Kyoto :dance: :banana: :bounce:
    9 resistors
    we have 1 regular Knight remaining…..

    Post Turn: I put the injured Cossacks into Osaka to heal and have left it at that. I have not moved any of the Knights from their place on the hill, I’ll leave to the next player how many they want to put into Kyoto (they won’t heal there while there’s resistance, but the 2/3 and 3/4 Knights could be upgraded there which would heal them), but they won’t reach Osaka. There’s an unmoved Cossack in Maunch Chunk and 3 unused workers ENE of Salamanca. The Army still has a little movement left. I think we need to take both Tokyo and Kagoshima before peace to keep Kyoto – Mapstat says it has a 12% probability next turn as it stands with only 1 defender, I have not done the detailed calcs yet though, I just don’t feel like having to capture it again in a hurry! It’ll probably be worth having a look to optimise the cities again. Oh yes and if we're going to trade Mil Tradition we'd better do it before everyone's got it. I cannot see why we cannot trade luxuries with the Arabs.

    Treasury: 233 gold, +219 gpt – NB: left on zero research for upgrade gold not spent yet this turn


    Zwingli (up next)
    TedJackson
    tao
    Demiurge
    Furiey (just played)


    The Save
     

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  7. Zwingli

    Zwingli Prince

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    After taking Kyoto, the rest of the game should start to go quickly. :)

    I've got it, but won't be able to start until Friday evening.
     
  8. tao

    tao Deity

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    Since some AIs are already industrial, I suppose they have an embargo against us.

    And given the precarious state of our saltpeter, I would upgrade now as much units (pikes, knights) as possible; either France or Arabs might declare war on us anytime.

    And shouldn't we try to get Edo also to remove Japan from the continent before making peace? We might even - depending on Indian attacks - raze the Japanese settlements on our home island, thus confining them to the rock island.

    And St. Regis looks like easy prey also.

    I'm sure, Zwingli will make the most of it all. :)
     
  9. Furiey

    Furiey No Longer Just Lurking

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    Hmmm - I suppose it could be a trade embargo, but I must admit I always thought they stopped all trade (we can still deal techs etc), not just luxuries/resources.

    As for Japan, with our current production ability I think we keep pressing forward. Both Moscow and Paris produce a Cossack every 3 turns, so we can leave the Moscow Cossacks on our home island to deal with India (and Japan), hopefully not too many jumbos will arrive at once and we can pick them off one by one and heal our troops in between. There is also the Iroquois capitol - the French are after that, not sure if we could get enough troops to get there first though.
     
  10. Zwingli

    Zwingli Prince

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    1250 AD (0)
    Trade Millitary Tradition around for Magnetism, Theory of Gravity, and Democracy plus change causing us to enter the Industrial Age and get Nationalism for free. No one has Nationalism yet and I hold off on trading it. Start research on Steam Power and use our remaining gold to upgrade all our remaining knights and a few pikes.

    IBT- 3 resistors give up in Kyoto. The Iroquois declare war on us due to an alliance with India

    1255 AD (1)
    Capture Kagoshima from a pikeman costing 1 cossack, advance on Tokyo with the remaining cossacks

    IBT- The French capture Cattaragus.

    1260 AD (2)
    Capture Tokyo from 3 pikes and a spearman costing 1 cossack and also capture St. Regis from a single spearman at no cost. Take out 1 elephant in Moscow's sphere, but lose a cossack trying to take a second elephant.

    Unfortunately, the Iroquois capital moves to a 1 tile island, and this game is going to last until marines (unless we can get the amphibious capable Vikings to take them out).

    1265 AD (3)
    In order to boost research toward Amphibious warfare, I think that we can use the large French cities in our core. If we can take them out quickly, we will be able to quickly boost research during the golden age. Nationalism will be widely known before long, so we should take on the stronger civs before they can field many riflemen.

    I begin transferring some cossacks north and coralling all of the offensive French units moving through our territory onto less defensive terrain.

    IBT- Aztecs sign an alliance with Zululand against us.

    1270 AD (4)
    I don't want to be fighting two civs to our south, so I sign the Keltoi against the Aztecs (no cost except a ROP). Also, we take out an Aztec knight in our territory.

    Fail to take Edo from Japan after 1 cossack loses to a spearman and 1 retreats.
    On the central landmass we lose a cossack attacking the pike in Pune and lose a second taking out an elephant and have to temporarilly abandon offence against India there.

    IBT- Resistance in Kyoto ends

    1275 AD (5)
    Take Edo from Japan, exiling their capital to Moscow's landmass, and hopefully reducing flip probabilities.

    IBT- Riflemen complete in Kahnawake and Tyendenaga, making our saltpeter source somewhat more secure.

    1280 AD (6)
    The French units are in a vulnearble position, so I demand that they leave our territory triggering war. Sign Arabia into alliance against France for 18gpt. Lyons is interfering with our trade route through Arabia, so we lose access to our saltpeter.

    We lose a cossack attacking Lyons, and after another retreat postpone the attack there. We take out 3 cavalry, 1 knight, 2 musketeers, 1 spearman in our territory and capture 7 workers losing 3 more cossacks.

    IBT- We successfully defend against an elephant and archer.

    1285 AD (7)
    Capture Cattaragus from France in the south taking out 2 knight and an axeman for 1 cossack loss.

    IBT- A batch of 4 cossacks complete, giving us enough units to attack (probably heavilly defended) Orleans. Several Arabian units are spotted in the north, but no French units are seen moving.

    1290 AD (8)
    Capture Orleans from 5 musketeers at a cost of 3 cossacks gaining another source of saltpeter.

    IBT-The Keltoi sign an alliance against us with India and declare war. Kyoto flips but we had no troops in the city.

    1295 AD (9)
    Retake Kyoto from the new spearman. Sign England against the Keltoi for Millitary Tradition, then make peace with Zululand for 8gpt and sign them against Keltoi for wines + 4gpt.
    Capture Pune, destroying 1 elephant, 1 spearman, and 1 pike losing 1 cossack on the Moscow landmass.

    IBT- A French Cavalry takes out one of the Cossaks defending Orleans. A large amount of Arab units pass Kahnawake on the way to France.
    We learn Steam Power, but this makes Hanging Gardens obsolete causing a couple cities to riot. Start reseach on Industrialization.

    1300 AD (10)
    We have 1 coal resource in our territory, so railing commences.
    We take both Lyons and Rheims without losses, capturing Bach's Cathedral. Move cossacks toward Rouen to potentially take the city next turn.
    Also capture Ganges which is in a fairly productive spot on the central landmass.

    Post-Turn
    France seems to be collapsing rather quickly, and it will be a race to capture their cities before the Arabs. Unfortunately, the French have a city on a far-away island which will ensure their survival for a little longer, so we probably should still starve the captured cities or build workers. Also, Steam Power is available to trade and Arabia has a reasonable amount of gold if we don't consider them a target in the near future. I would hold off on brokering Nationalism for obvious reasons.

    The research rate currently sustains a small surplus to upgrade our galleys, but we should be able to get a few turns off of Industrialization through a combination of new cities and increasing research rate.



    TedJackson (up next?)
    tao (probably up)
    Demiurge
    Furiey
    Zwingli
     
  11. Furiey

    Furiey No Longer Just Lurking

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    Great, at last we're making progress and have got the Arabs working with us rather than against us. Bit late at the moment, so here are the next turn flip probabilites from MapStat:
     

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  12. tao

    tao Deity

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    Got it and will look at it and play tomorrow.

    Update: the last 2 days, I was busy full-time in the office; will play tonite.
     
  13. tao

    tao Deity

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    I had a short look at the save, and 2 ideas came to my mind
    1. Was is a good idea to capture the Indian cities near Moscow? IMHO this increases the corruption on the oher continent A LOT and it would have been better to raze them gaining slave workers to improve the home land.
    2. It might be a good idea to do some switches to markets before continuing and mobilize. A mobilized Golden Age will produce us A LOT of units. And with the number of wars we have going on, we can make peace relatively easy to get out of mobilization.
    Comments?
     
  14. tao

    tao Deity

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    Sorry, but I'm still at work and it will be a long evening.

    Furiey: feel free to take the save and skip me, if you have time.

    Sorry about this.
     
  15. Furiey

    Furiey No Longer Just Lurking

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    Yes our corruption has increased. Using civ assist to get net gold per turn and corruption I get 24% corruption for 1200 AD (279 net gpt, 68 corruption) and 30% for 1300 AD (340 net gpt, 103 production). the increase can be clearly seen in the 3 nothern desert cities, which are still all at size 2 allowing easy comparison. I had thought that we were going to raze rather than capture around Moscow, but now we have then what to do? Adandoning them (as would razing them in the first place) would leave empty ground that the AI will rush to build Settlers to fill rather than building military units or improvements, but can we now do this or would it be crossing the line towards the exploit? Alternatively we capture no more than these so at least corruption gets no worse.

    As for mobilisation, i had wondered that myself. I don't use it in my games (tend to forget it's even there) but if we are going conquering and are building all military anyway, setting a few markets and then switching seems ideal.

    edit - cross posted with tao: I've just back myself and won't be able to play tonight and quite possibly not tomorrow either - sounds like we've all got busy times after returning from Christmas. So if you still have chance to pick it up tomorrow or Thursday, please do so, otherwise I will be able to play Friday. If things change and I can play tomorrow and you have not been able to tao, I will post a got it before I commence, I do think this is unlikely however.
     
  16. tao

    tao Deity

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    Switch Alleghenny, Tours, Salamanca to market, Kyoto, Lyon to library, Ganges, Pune to worker, Paris to university, Mauch Chunk to aqueduct
    some tile shuffling between Tonawanda and Salamanca, some mm

    mobilize, but the gotm mods don't allow it, hit return

    IBT Arabs capture Grenoble

    1: 1305: industrialization in 8 (after 10 turns last turn)
    capture Rouen

    2: 1310: capture French Capitol Marseilles (surrounded by A LOT of Arab troops), capture Dijon, capture Centralia

    Decision to make: France has Besancon in the north plus Poitiers on a remote southern island. Thus we will have a long time flip risk. Decide to break alliance with Arabs and make peace for Poitier, free artistry, wm; Arabs are furious :) ; send 2 cossacks north in case Arabs don't finish France; workers work
    we need 10% lux tax; mm cities

    IBT Vikings cancel our alliance vs. Egypt.

    3: 1315: loose elite cossack vs. Indian spear in razing Indus; workers work
    donate Ganges to Vikings (may be last Capitol to avoid having it on remote/1-tile-island once we finish them) and they turn from annoyed to cautious; donate Pine to America (they are at war with India), Abe turns polite and our corruption in the new world drops

    IBT Arabic forces destroy French

    4: 1320: workers work

    5: 1325: raze Nagoya getting elite cossack; move troops towards Keltic lands

    6: 1330: attack on Izumo produces Great Leader Stalin; hurries to Moscow
    Arabs and Keltoi know nationalism :(
    Zulu give gems, 35gpt, wm, 101g for nationalism
    sell democracy to Mongols for their wm, 35g; declare war on them; form alliance w Zulu against them getting gems, 35gpt
    give Abe nationalism, wines, 7gpt for alliance vs. India

    7: 1335: move mass forces against Keltoi

    IBT treacherous Abe signs peace w India :(

    8: 1340: Stalin builds army in Moscow; learn industrialization start electricity (towards replaceable parts)
    capture Verulamium and Camulodunum

    IBT Spain and India sign embargo against us; Keltoi drop knight next to undefended Poitier

    9: 1345: capture Lugdunum, kill 5 defenders in Entremont, but fail to capture the city
    raze Izumo, capture Teotihuacan; abandon Poitiers

    IBT Zulu and Mongols sign peace :(
    our Golden Age ends
    Zulu capture Entremont :(

    10: 1350: ship-chain army to new world, kill some more Aztecs, move troops, workers work

    Afterthoughts:
    Keltoi should crumble fast. Cossacks in galley are supposed to raze Nagasaki; Japanese capitol Nara has spices, which would be nice to have.
    Workers have nearly completed railroad backbone; afterwards we can do growth/production optimization. Rheims is (with mm!) 2 turn worker factory.

    Demiurge (up next)
    Furiey
    Zwingli
    tao (just played)
     
  17. Zwingli

    Zwingli Prince

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    Finally our FP city is safe from a flip :).

    Since we probably can't sign cheap alliances anymore, maybe we can sign MPPs to keep the AI at war. It might be worthwhile to get the Arabs at war with one of the southern civs just to get all of their units out in the open.
     
  18. Furiey

    Furiey No Longer Just Lurking

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    No word from Demiurge, I would guess work hasn't let up as he's not been on-line since the 10th, so I shall say Got It and play shortly.
     
  19. Furiey

    Furiey No Longer Just Lurking

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    I was hoping to finish today, but have got up to turn 6, and have captured all the Aztec, Keltoi and Japanese cities on the main continent, so we need a new target. I suppose England is the next to the S, but we have 3 more turns of the Alliance against the Keltoi to go, similarly we have 10 more turns of deals with Zulu. We now have the strongest military, so at some point we'll need to deal with the Arabs although as I couldn't get them in an alliance or MPP I signed an Embargo against the Indians (14 turns to go). I'll finish tomorrow.
     
  20. tao

    tao Deity

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    Don't worry about breaking an alliance, as long as you don't ROP rape, because
     

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