SGOTM8 - Ivan

King Alexander said:
1)Ok, Adrian, I'll play next.

2) I have to wait to see what have we decided for the next techs(MA techs), general strategy.

P.S.: I also agree with Adrian, to build more military, as we're very weak.
1) I think better if you will play 12 (6+6) turns when deals with Cina and Rome will expire.
You may trade Currensy for lump sum. We may want to make MA with Greeks vs China. If Bejin will stay we will able to get Island City.
2) I normally research engineering. I recomend trade Monotheism from Greeks and have
Engineering, Monotheism,Theology, Education, Astronomy route.

Re: Iron looks very risky. We may make RoP for Construction. I don't recomend to trade Currency becase we will have to cave with it. It will be good if Greeks will get Currency and we trade it for construction.

Another option is make MA with China vs Grees. Looks as suicide IMHO.
 
@Ivan: I played some turns, before I read your responce, but, we agree on many things on our strategy, except one:
IMHO, We HAVE to try to claim the Iron, even if our chances are very slim. So what, if we won't claim the Iron? We must try for it, as we won't be able to trade for Iron from the other Civs, AND, if we succeed, we'll have 1 less reason to afraid that Greece will wipe us out of the game(it's a good possibility).

Pre-turn:
Trade WM for 4g.

330BC (1)
NY: settler --> settler. Trade WM for 7g. China has settled 1S from where we aimed to settle(dyes area): NY is building 1 more settler to claim the area if Greece destroys it, OR the settler could wait until we raze Canton, a bit later.
Greece settled W of Buffalo.

310BC (2)
Washington: archer --> archer. We lose 1 archer attacking a conscript barb(argh!)

290BC (3)
Atlanta: library --> barracks. No WM trade the last 2 turns.

IBT
A Viking archer appears W of SF. Indeed, the warrior I just parked there, 2 turns before, gave us a VALUABLE contact!!!

270BC (4)
INCOMPLETE: I haven't moved anything. I'll stop here to discuss things.

Suggestions:

1) The Vikings very backward: they lack Philosophy, CoL, Literature, Polytheism, and Construction. They have 142g in their treasury(which, will be ALL ours soon!). NO OTHER CIVS have contacted them yet, so, it's an opportunity for us to make some good deals. The Vikings have 11 cities(including their capital), exactly the number our Civ has so far, so, they're not small.

2) The GW finishes the next turn, and after that, archers and horses out of Boston.

3) I think, we should change Chicago to a library first, and then we can finish the barracks or a harbor(preferably), so the city gets to grow more.

4) A lot of cities will need an aqueduct and marketplaces, once we trade for Currency. A worker is also heading for second gems colony.

5) I'll wait a bit, and when we have 2 archers, I'll take out that barb camp(it seems, 1 veteran archer isn't enough to defeat him!).

6) The settler goes towards the Iron, unescorted, BUT, units will follow him soon enough. I'll sign a RoP with Greece after 2 turns.

Here's what I were thinking: We may consider the option to sign an MA with Greece vs China, so, we can raze Canton and claim the dyes. We could also sign RoP with Greece for free, this way. After a couple of turns, we'll have 4-5 archers near Canton, and we'll take it, so, no need to worry about China. Thing is, all the Greek units I've seen near Xinjang, are heading towards Beijing, so, Greece would need some time to send it's units back to capture Canton.

This strategy has advantages:
a) We'll make Greece to fight some more time with China, and not concentrate on us for the time being.
b) We earn MORE TIME to build the Iron city, as Greece will focus on China's other cities, and maybe, will build some galleys to chase China on the islands.

Of course, this requires that we'll trade Currency from someone else, but that won't matter, since we'll have money from trading money from the Vikings contact.

7) The 4 workers inside Buffalo, should split in 2 Teams: the first Team will road towards Houston, and the second Team will go to connect the Iron city(in case we'll build it, I HOPE), via the shortest possible way(Delphi --> Athens), and then also connect the Iron.

8) WHAT HAVE WE DECIDED ON OUR RESEARCH PATH ON THE MIDDLE AGES???
EDIT: nevermind, I had missed Ivan's previous post. What the others say about it?

P.S.: We may also need a couple workers more to clear all that jungle faster. One more thing: IMHO, we should fortigy 2 spears on our gems colonies on the S mountains, so we won't destroy our reputation if someone(Japan) pillages them. 1-2 catapults along with the spears, would be also welcome ;)

I'll wait to hear what all the Team members think/suggest.
 
Note: I'd appreciate a post, if possible, that would guide me about what's the best way to trade the Viking contact around, step-by-step(and also to buy Currency: NOT from China, if we'll sign MA with Greece), like Ivan's previous, brilliant trade.
 
I'll go along with Ivan's reseach path. We should go for the iron now I think. I like your plan for a MA with greeks vs china to try and make them keep focus and not attck us. Should also reduce change of greeks from building culture. I'm very interrested to see what you can get out of the trading, will try myself and compare lateron again. Please write detailed report.
 
nerovats said:
Should also reduce change of greeks from building culture.
Thing is that, Greece will also build culture, sooner or later, so, our cities are also at risk to flip to Greece.
We have to trade much with Greece, trade/gift them our second gems(I'll make sure to send 2 spears to guard the colonies from pillaging), pay them gpt if possible(via loans or techs: especially, if we'll pay them for a Middle Age tech), and cave in their demands for the time being. We'll buy some time, this way, and hope, that they'll be able to hold themselves :lol:
nerovats said:
I'm very interrested to see what you can get out of the trading, will try myself and compare lateron again. Please write detailed report.
Ok.
 
K-A, Looked at save:
Only Rome have money: they may pay 11 gpt+63 gold.
Vikings have only 142 gold and agree to pay all+WM for our WM.
Greeks have expensive WM but nothing else.
I think we must use this situation to arrange "dog pit" to Japan.
Note, that communication will be cheaper after each trade.
1) trade vikings WM+142 for WM
2) trade English currency+MA vs Japan for WM + communication +/- gold
3)Trade to Roman WM+Contact for gold
4) trade Grees WM, contact + 1 Tech +/- gold for MA vs Japan
5) Make RoP with Grees (As a separate deal, it is important!), Go to Iron/Vine!
6) Gift contact with Japan to Vikings
7) Make embassy and alliance vs Japan wiht vikings for some thech. (Poly +Phylo?)+WM?
--- Not sure, that China may go to war vs Japan. Anyhow I do not want to be bound wit China.
We may trade Monotheism for MA vs China soon.

Micromanage Wash to have 10 spt next turn. Do not build Settlers in NY, we will increase Lux anyway nex turn. Boston may compleat GW, I belive.
 
Ok, Ivan: interesting deals, and a good way to have the AI's fight each other.

I'll play again, soon.
 
"Here's what I were thinking: We may consider the option to sign an MA with Greece vs China, so, we can raze Canton and claim the dyes. We could also sign RoP with Greece for free, this way."
Please DON'T do that until deals with China expires! reputation is a must at this game!
 
continuing...

270BC (4)
1: Trade Vikings WM for their WM + 142g(they just begun settling at the island nearby: their core is at another island, not far away from us).
2: I offer England alliance vs Japan + contact with Vikings + WM for Currency + 8g + WM.
3: Offer to Rome our WM + contact with the Vikings for 59g + 5gpt + WM(they're left with only 4g now).
4: Offer Greece alliance vs Japan + WM + contact with the Vikings + Construction for their WM + 14g(they have a very expensive WM, indeed).
5: Offer Greece RoP; it's free(as a separate deal), and they're cracious towards us.
6: Gift Vikings contact with Japan.
7: Establish embassy with Vikings for 35g: Nidaros is building the Great Lighthouse(due in 29 turns), it makes 5spt, has no resources or luxuries(yet), 3 spears are guarding it, it's set on zero growth(1 happy citizen, 3 content and 1 clown), and, believe it or not, they have only built the Colossus in their capital and nothing else(are they trying to trigger their Golden Age?).
8: Offer Vikings alliance vs Japan for WM + Polytheism + Philosophy.

Micromanage Washington to have 10spt(2 turn, archer factory). Change NY to barracks.

IBT

A Japanese galley appears near Boston.

250BC (5)
I forgot to raise the lux and Boston riots...(stupid me). Sell WM for 13g. Make second gems colony.

IBT
1 more Japanese galley appears, the first one heads towards Washington.
Boston completes the GW: starts spear.

230BC (6)
Chicago: barracks --> spearman.

IBT
Japan unloads 1 horseman next to Washington.

210BC (7)
Washington: spear --> archer. NY: barracks --> spear. Trade WM for 7g.

IBT
The Japanese horse attacks and defeats 1 warrior at Boston.

190BC (8)
Boston: spear --- archer. We kill the japanese horse with an archer. Trade WM for 5g.

IBT
Japan unloads an archer, another galley comes outside Boston's borders(how many galleys have they?)

170BC (9)
We kill the Japanese archer. Sell WM for 5g.
We're a bit unlucky with our settler so far: Greek workers make our life difficult of reaching quicj towards the Iron... we're not far away(4 turns to reach there, and settle on the 5th turn).

150BC (10)
Trade WM for 8g. Rome starts Sun Tzu's(they're the only ones that have Feudalism).

130BC (11)
Nothing.

110BC (12)
The third japanese galley, which I'd mentioned 2 turns before, looks like it's going to try to pillage the gems colonies! It's headin clearly that way, as I can tell. Trade WM for 5g.

I'll stop here, and not complete the turn: I'm so dissapointed that reached so close to the Iron city, but Greece expanded it's borders!!!. If all those Greek workers wouldn't be on my way(at least, 3 workers, on crucial paths!), I'm certain, I'd settle and claim the Iron...

Summary
1) Rome has a monopoly on Feudalism.
2) Greece will accept to trade Monotheism for 12gpt + 197g + Gems, but, we must think very well if we want to make this deal now, or wait 1-2 turns, to have spears fortified on the colonies, and also have some archers nearby.
3) We lost the Iron: maybe, we should have pushed more to get it, as our goal. As I see the WM, no Civ has a second source, and I don't know if there's other sources out there that aren't visible yet.
4) Maybe, we should now build Horsemen and NOT archers, and also build some catapults.

Maybe, we should build a dozen catapults and many archers, to try and get on Greece, after our MA vs Japan expires? Those hoplites are tough to deal with archers, but, we'll see. Invention is not near us, but we could make it a goal, I don't know...
 
A few more suggestions:
a) We should also have 1 spear guarding all our core cities(especially, since they're coastal, and all civs also have horses).

b) leave the fortified warrior S of Philadelphia and the warrior W of SF on their positions, as we don't want to emerge new barb camps!

c) Washington, Boston and NY have barracks: IMHO, we don't need more of them right now, as the maintainance costs will go up. Better to build some marketplaces/aqueducts/harbors in the other cities, before going for barracks(also, build a library in Chicago, after the marketplace: other civs will settle at the island nearby, and it'd be good to have a chance to flip nearby cities). I think, marketplaces before aqueducts, in higher levels, is better.

d) Washington, Boston and NY should also build marketplaces, once we have spears guarding Chicago, Atlanta and Seattle, as well as 3-4 horses: these cities will finish the marketplaces real soon, and the extra income and hapiness will be good for us, and besides, Japan will have to face invasions from other civs for some time, so, we'll be, somewhat, safe.

e) after some infrastructure on our core, we should concentrate on military: mainly, horses, catapults and some archers(for upgrade, although, we need Feudalism and Invention for that). If we manage to have a strong army, maybe we should start getting it to Greece, 1-2 cities at a time, and have settlers nearby to claim the territory(Thermopylae and then Delphi is a good first target, to leave Greece without horses/knights). However, we should also protect our SoD with a few spears, so our offensive units will go unrhut to do some damage.

f) TRY, if possible, to attack a Japanese unit with our Elite warrior(he's near Washington): maybe we'll get lucky, you never know...
IMHO, once we have spears in our core and some horses to protect it, we should disband the warriors, so we won't pay more maintenance. Do you think, we need them still?

g) At some point, take out that annoying barb camp outside SF(I had to protect our core at my turns): we're at the Middle Ages now, and massive barb uprages will be the case soon.

h) better, order the settler back to, say, SF and have him on standby, in case Greece razes Canton or, keep him for a future settling, as we need to keep our core strong right now(no more settlers), and also, leave those 2 workers to finish the road, and maybe, take 2 more turns to connect Delphi(and Greece, via a road, not a harbor), although, since we now have RoP, Greece may send some of it's workers to connect Argos.

Let's see, what the future will bring to us...

P.S.: how do I manage to post so lengthy posts every time? :lol:
 
So close with the iron, we should have gone after it earlier. I can not look at the save now, but I will check on it tomorrow.
 
King Alexander said:
A few more suggestions:
a) We should also have 1 spear guarding all our core cities(especially, since they're coastal, and all civs also have horses).

b) leave the fortified warrior S of Philadelphia and the warrior W of SF on their positions, as we don't want to emerge new barb camps!

c) I think, marketplaces before aqueducts, in higher levels, is better.

d) Washington, Boston and NY should also build marketplaces, once we have spears guarding Chicago, Atlanta and Seattle, as well as 3-4 horses: these cities will finish the marketplaces real soon, and the extra income and hapiness will be good for us, and besides, Japan will have to face invasions from other civs for some time, so, we'll be, somewhat, safe.

e) after some infrastructure on our core, we should concentrate on military: mainly, horses, catapults and some archers(for upgrade, although, we need Feudalism and Invention for that). If we manage to have a strong army, maybe we should start getting it to Greece, 1-2 cities at a time, and have settlers nearby to claim the territory(Thermopylae and then Delphi is a good first target, to leave Greece without horses/knights). However, we should also protect our SoD with a few spears, so our offensive units will go unrhut to do some damage.

f) TRY, if possible, to attack a Japanese unit with our Elite warrior(he's near Washington): maybe we'll get lucky, you never know...
IMHO, once we have spears in our core and some horses to protect it, we should disband the warriors, so we won't pay more maintenance. Do you think, we need them still?

g) At some point, take out that annoying barb camp outside SF(I had to protect our core at my turns): we're at the Middle Ages now, and massive barb uprages will be the case soon.

h) better, order the settler back to, say, SF and have him on standby, in case Greece razes Canton or, keep him for a future settling, as we need to keep our core strong right now(no more settlers), and also, leave those 2 workers to finish the road, and maybe, take 2 more turns to connect Delphi(and Greece, via a road, not a harbor), although, since we now have RoP, Greece may send some of it's workers to connect Argos.
Summary
1) Rome has a monopoly on Feudalism.
2) Greece will accept to trade Monotheism for 12gpt + 197g + Gems, but, we must think very well if we want to make this deal now, or wait 1-2 turns, to have spears fortified on the colonies, and also have some archers nearby.
3) We lost the Iron: maybe, we should have pushed more to get it, as our goal. As I see the WM, no Civ has a second source, and I don't know if there's other sources out there that aren't visible yet.
4) Maybe, we should now build Horsemen and NOT archers, and also build some catapults.

Maybe, we should build a dozen catapults and many archers, to try and get on Greece, after our MA vs Japan expires? Those hoplites are tough to deal with archers, but, we'll see. Invention is not near us, but we could make it a goal, I don't know...
a) I am not sure. I think Archers better. We may not scare of war.
b)yes
c)Strongly disagry. We must research at max and trade. We may get Engineering in 6 turns If trade wine/gems. In future marketplase is good, but now military better.
d) Disagree again. We should rely on sci, not cash. Also aqueduct must be first. At Cities where Aqueduct is late (Seatle) we may get settler first.
e) think positevely about Grees. I recomend MA vs China this turn for WM and all gold they have
f), g) you may send warriors for that (take out camp).
h) I think we may settle at free land north of Bejgin. Try to connect Athens via bypass asap, connect second dyce to trade.
1) so what? we will trade it for engeniiring.
2)Main worry that If China declare to us we will loose reputation. I hope they will not make suicide. however better to have bypass. better to trade Engeniiring than.
3) I thought that it will happend. But team insisted...
4) washington may make 15 spt, and build horses. Boston, NY 10 spt: Archers.
Our MA vs Japan will expire much sonner then we will be ready to war with Greeks.
 
Ivan, do you think, we have a chance of a monopoly on Engineering, if we research it in 6 turns? I was thinking about it: I'm not 100% sure, but it may work.
 
"Ivan, do you think, we have a chance of a monopoly on Engineering, if we research it in 6 turns? I was thinking about it: I'm not 100% sure, but it may work."
Well, nobody can be sure, but I think it will work. Truble with trade of Lux: Stupid Greeks may pillage Cinise and breake Route.
Conehead up.
I recomend to make allianse vs chinise for the Greeks WM+ all gold +all gpt.
70% Sci will make 6 turns Engineering. Then we will trde it to romans for feo or mono +gpt. Then mono or feo to greeks. We may connect Athenes and trade Dyce and gems. (for vine +gpt.)
Send spear to protect settler and settle somwhere north of Bejin.
Regards, Ivan
 
Yes, roster is Conehead, nerovats, Adrian, Ivan, King-Alex.
I recomend 6+6 turns to Conehead: Stop and discuss when get Engineereeng.
IMHO that our strategical goal to get some Cities overseas.
 
Conehead, if we count your recent reply as "got it", only few hours left. Please, be more organizesd. This game will be long and to finish it in reasonable time better to play more turns and do not make big delays IBT. If conehead will not reply before 9:pm today nerovats may start playing.
Few things to mention: At my turns Kioto and London starts TGL. I am sure, that Kioto win. Therefore we have to get Education ASAP and trade it to Japan. With all our Libraries it is much better to trade scince, rather then accomulate money. With this research rate we may think about Copernicus prebuild.
One more thing: We miss Iron City but still can build colony on Iron. If we will have money (that I doubt),
we may upgrade warriors and spears. Drawback of this operation is that Greeks will get iron after border expansion. I think, that disadvantages of this gift more then advantages. I think that with Invention and LB we may take Greeks easy without Iron.
 
Guys I am really sorry but I have to quit the team untill further notice. I began to play the turns but something happened and the computer rebooted and now I cannot get civ started again. I believe my civ computer has finally kicked the bucket. I don't know how to fix it. So I believe I should just quit the team and return next SGOTM, hopefully I will ahve it fixed by then. If you want me to stick around, I may be able to still help if you can post some screenshots. But I won't be able to play untill I fix the computer or get a new one. As my parents will not let me put any games on the labtop. I am truly sorry about this.
 
Thats a pity indeed, Conehead. You allways welcome back.
Hope, you will be able to fix computer at least to see saves.
It is impossible to put all information via pictures.
Could you tell us what you think about research rate and should
we connect Iron as a Colony?
I also hope that Adrian will tell his thoughts as well.
Regards, Ivan.
Nerovats up
 
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