Shadow Civ Implementation

[xmen510]

I do.

There is one more thing we need to add then. Angmar.

Angmar existed because of Sauron and the Witch-King. Should we double up so to speak? Remove Angmar until Sauron can research another Tech and Build a Wonder himself to spawn Angmar?

That way all the Shadow Civs will be Allied. We should put in however that such an Alliance would break if a Player changed their Alignment to Good. It doesn't really make sence for Melkor to be aligned with a Cherry, Happy-Go-Lucky Sauron after all!

In the Custom game however we should allow all the Civs to be available right from the start. This way people don't feel like we are controlling them.

 

[Berenthor]

Yes that seems like a good idea to have them available in custom game then. We have to check how to do that though because that is not normally supported I think.

On Angmar, I was thinking along the same lines. The only problem I see there is that maybe they are then to much connected. But it is quite accurate. I like it personnaly. As for the allignment for the shadow, I would suggest to fix their allignment so they can't change. Although on the other hand, maybe you want the redeemed Sauron game. I'm not sure about this. A good Sauron seems just wrong but on the other hand, maybe it should be possible.

On Morgoth, I would not obsolete his units at the end of the first age. Maybe we can pose limitations in the sense that there won't be improved versions of those units and he can only get improved versions of the orcs, uruks, olegs, trolls, etc. but not from the balrogs, dragons, etc. Or we only let him be able to build those first age units like balrogs, dragons, werewolves, vampires, etc. but not making them better as the ages go by. This way he can still create new units but they won't be stronger.

 

[T_F]

Angmar is a tough question. They are indeed there because of Sauron, but they also act as a nice balance to the automatically-Good Edain as the only other Men civ that's automatically anything.

Hmmm... Maybe they're automatically Evil anyway, but with some random guy as their leader and not allied with Sauron (maybe fairly weak technologically too). Sauron can research a Tech or build a Wonder or maybe gift them a Nazgûl unit to ally with them, switch their leader to the Witch-king, and give them a nice little extra tech branch for better units. One easy problem with that though is that any human player playing them gets off to a way worse start, and another is that if Sauron has to gift them a Nazgûl and they're on opposite sides of the world it's not an easy thing for him to do.

I think we agreed in the Alignments discussion that both Morgoth and Sauron are on Permanent Evil. Maybe for Angmar though there would be something a Good civ can do to get them to go Good before Sauron can get to them.

And agreed on the custom game thing.

EDIT: Since I was ninja-ed by Berenthor:
Redeemed Sauron I don't think should be possible (maybe as a custom game option, unfix Sauron's alignment).

And so Morgoth gets some weaker Shadow-y units, but not exactly Mordor units? Seems good. They should be weaker than the world average at the time, so that if Sauron doesn't protect him he's gone.

 

[Sengir]

I don't like the idea of a redeemed Sauron, but the idea of a spawned of witch-king has its merits. On the other hand, another evil civ to play might be nice as well (otherwise you have to play either Morgoth or take a neutral-evil civ and make it to evil quickly).

I'm not quite sure about what to do with Morgoth after he spawns Sauron.

 

[xmen510]

I forgot that we already agreed on a few Permanent Evil Civs, so no Redeemed Sauron (in the Core game. Custom game should be able to turn off requried Alignments).

Perhaps once Sauron comes into play, if the Player chooses to go with Sauron, Melkor/Morgoth's King Unit dies, but the Civ remains and is AI controlled & Permanent Alliance with Mordor & Angmar eventually. If the Player chooses to keep playing as Morgoth then penalties ensue & Permanent Alliance Mordor & Angmar eventually.

Possible Penalties:

Increased Research Time (more expensive)
High Cost Older Units: To Build and Maintenance

After thinking of this. I really think that Angmar should be a Shadow Civ. It only existed as a Civ because of Sauron & the Witch-King after all.

We could add in the Variags for a third Evil Men Civ or just leave it at 2 Evil Men Civs. If we leave out the Variag, then we would still have 9 "Good" Civs, 6 "Neutral' Civs and 5 "Evil" Civs (3 to Begin with with up to a possible 5).

Info taken from an earlier list.

VARIAG - Men of Khand (Horsemen like the Rohirrim)
Leader: SANGAHYANDO

Cities: 20 Cities

STURLURTSA_KHAND - Capital
KYZILKUM
AMMU_KHAND
LAORKI
OVATHRAC
KORL_CHELKAR
AMRÛN
KORONDAJ
FEAB
GIZAR
KAS_AWCHEL
KRUK_MAHUR
GOBEL_ANCALIMON
MARASH
LAYOTANI
KRUK_AZBANNA
TEREZE
PELEPELPLÛ
CHAJAPÛN
LODENÚLY

 

[T_F]

I think it's fine without Variags, since we already have a balance between one automatically Good Men civ and one automatically Evil. I prefer Angmar as a Men civ, since it's essentially like our Isengard civ - a bunch of primitive men ruled by someone under the authority of Sauron (Isengard isn't automatically there, but is set to head that way in most cases).

 

[xmen510]

I agree with the decision to exclude the Variags. I just thought I would offer it as a suggestion.

 

[Sifaus]

I LOVE variags. They are Corrupted version of Rohan as Horse riders. Variags can be come from Easterlings (Like Infernals from an Ashen Veil Civ (ffh2)) with alliance. Many little but different civs can be implement like this.

In first age, there can be only a "Elves" civ then they divide by an Early Project "Coming of Vala (Oromë?)" or "Great Journey of Eldar", "Elves" civ destroys and they Splits off to civs that you wrote at Civs List. It can be so different from other mods and it gives you big chance to create your own way. By this, it will be realistic for Middle Earth, because all of Elven civs coming from one folk. All of Dwarves come from Durin's Kingdom, All of Man coming from "Hildorien".

Then, by this idea, there can be only 4 selectable civs at start;
-Cuivienen Elves (Splits off to "Eldar" and "Avari" [Eldar divides to..]
-Durin Dwarves (Splits off to ...)
-Hildorien Mans (Splits off to ...)
-Shadow (Becouse Morgoth created Orcs when elves come, by corrupting some of them. He find Elves before Valar.).

Just an idea, if you like it, i can expand it by a new thread.

 

[xmen510]

That is an interesting idea.

Just one note however. The Dwarves (Khazad) don't actually all come from Durin. There were 7 Fathers created. 6 were put together in pairs, while Durin was the one to "Sleep Alone".

 

[xmen510]

It might be a bit ambitious to begin with however. Thought it is something that would be very nice to try at alater date. This kind of thing is really up to those who will be doing the bulk of the coding. It would be very interesting.

After the Quendi split:

You choose which subset of Quendi you want to play. Then the coming of Khazad: choose to play as Khazad or continue as Quendi and then Men. It would incorporate certain aspects of RFC. I like it, but as I said, it might be a bit ambitious for a first release.

 

[Sifaus]

Here is a sample;

 

[xmen510]

I get it now. Very interesting. That would be very cool. First release? That I am not sure about. Woudl the existing cities be split between the news civs then? We would deffinately need to answer a lot of questions here.

You should also check out the Discussion Status thread OP for the most recently updated links and lists, when it comes to Civ, etc.

 

[Sengir]

I think that would be a better fit for a scenario (ie. replay the history of Arda). I like it a lot and it is something I've thought about as well (though not quite as far as you I suppose). I don't think however I would like it for the base mod. I prefer the base mod to be more civ like, that is all civs start at the same period in time (a few select excepted), anachronisms be damned.

I would however like to start something like this (a replay the history of Arda scenario) and a couple of smaller scenarios as well, but only after we get a first and probably second version of the mod out.

 

[xmen510]

I think this would be more along the lines of a ModMod than a Scenario!

It is a complete reimagining of how the game works in a way. It expands upon RFC and takes it about 3 Leaps forward.

It will indeed be amazing and it is something I want to do as well. However, considering how long people have already been waiting for this, perhaps we should get this out as a "Base Mod" first and foremost.

in regard to Sengirs' comment:

I prefer the base mod to be more civ like, that is all civs start at the same period in time (a few select excepted), anachronisms be damned.

Are you suggesting just leaving all 3 Civs in at the beginning and leave the Angband-to-Mordor-to-Angmar as a scenario as well? Or did i just read a bit too far into your comment there?

It would deffinately make the Mod simpler to begin with if we left the Angband-to-Mordor-to-Angmar concept for a second release. It fits along the same route we are talking about going in here anyway. It just applys it to all Civs.

 

[Sengir]

My personal opinion was to include them both from the start, but I like the uniqueness given by the Angband > Morder creation. (that's the few select exceptions ), so I'm very much in favor of that now.

I'm not to sure about doing the same with Angmar. I think Angmar works better as a seperate civ for evil men, which gets the king unit upgraded big time upon turning to evil and getting themselves a ring (and alliances with the shadow civ). It would also rob the uniqueness from the Angband-Mordor relation IMHO, though some might argue that the relation Witch-King<>Sauron was similar to Sauron <>Melkor, I feel a real distinction there (if only for the powerscale). I do think however that the Angmar civ should receive major benefits from allying with the shadow civ, as that was the reason the Witch-King got corrupted in the first place: he accepted Sauron to be more powerful then kings in surrounding kingdoms. It would also create a nice dynamic in that you would have to be carefull about waging war with Angmar: if it allies with the shadow civ while you're in a war with it, you'd better check your defenses or get overrun be a pimped out new king commanding the undead to rise against you.

EDIT: As for it making it simpler, FFH has the mechanism allready in place, so it shouldn't be too hard.

 

[xmen510]

Sounds great then.

So:

Implement Angband to Mordor Transition but keep Angmar separate. Upon Alliance with Mordor, they upgrade to the Witch-King King Unit. Until then the Numenorean Prince Er-Murazor (According to MERP as Tolkien never identified him) can be the Leader/King Unit perhaps.

 

[Sengir]

Yeah, it would be weird to have the leader named the Witch-King while he's unable to do any witchcrafty stuff.
Er-Murazor is good, otherwise Dwimmerlaik might be an obscure enough name for him to not be directly associated with him.

 

[xmen510]

Perhaps. It is at the end of his unlife, but it could work.

 

[xmen510]

Another thing. We could have the upgrade actually require 2 Components:

#1: Sauron/Mordor Must have built the Wonder allowing the 9 Rings of Men and Nazgul/Ringwraiths

#2: Sauron/Mordor and Angmar must have either an Alliance or Angmar must be a Willing Vassal (if we have Vassals - Which I will bring up right now in the Featurelist Thread) of Sauron/Mordor.

 

[Sengir]

Yeah, I was thinking along those lines as well.