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Shadow Game for an Old Dude

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by OldDude, Sep 23, 2018.

  1. OldDude

    OldDude Chieftain

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    Thanks to all for responding to my "please help" post about struggling on Noble. I know this is child's play for most of you but not me. One suggestion was to post a shadow game so here it is. This is my opening position, which looks pretty decent to me. I'll wait for comments. Thanks in advance!

    UPDATE: Based on suggestions I rolled a new game.
    Settings: Normal speed/size. Huts off, Barbs & Espionage on, Pangaea with medium sea level, William van Oranje. New files attached.

    UPDATE 2: Rolled a new map. This one looks much better. Also, went random on the leader and got Cyrus. Bug/Bull mods installed. All settings the same and forgot to mention events are off as well. New files attached.

    Thanks!
    Spoiler Starting Position :
    Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Sep 23, 2018
  2. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Hey OD . Just a couple of quick bits on posting a game:

    1) tell us the settings
    2) post the save
     
  3. OldDude

    OldDude Chieftain

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    Lymond, ok will do. By the way, how do you post the image as a "spoiler"?

    Settings: Noble, normal speed, normal size, continents, huts on, no barbarians, William van Oranje. Anything else I should add?
     

    Attached Files:

  4. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Okay a few bug bears.
    Low sea level is not a good option to be learning the game on. Increase land available to Ai and the human player.
    Also turn off huts. You don't learn much with huts on.

    Why have you turned off barbs and espionage? Barbs are a very minor threat on Noble level.
     
  5. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Not on PC at moment. But willl fumble type on iphone that you can edit the OP to change/add stuff.

    Spoiler option is under the drop down button just to right of paper clips.

    Recommend:

    Normal speed/map
    Huts/Events off
    Barbs on!
    Pangaea map for now

    And yes, I would reroll with those settings. Just update OP with new info save.

    Also, get the bug/bull mods.
     
  6. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Ok..on my machine, so can be a bit more useful. Here you can find BUG/BULL:

    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/download-bug-and-bat-here.274636/

    BUG/BULL work together. Just download and install in SP mode - it installs in the Custom Assets folder and loads automatically without actually loading a mod. Note: BULL install requires copying some files after unzipping. Pretty straightforward, but if you are uncomfortable with doing that, just install BUG for now.

    OD keeps Barbs OFF and Espionage off because that is his "comfort zone" and how he has been playing for years, without fully realizing the impact of the settings. Here is an explanation of why on certain settings:

    1) Barbs on - way the game is meant to be played. You turn them off as you had trouble dealing with barbs. We teach you how to deal with them. Simply by playing better/making better choices you will deal with them better or make them a non-factor.

    2) Espionage ON - probably turned them off because a) you simply did not really understand how use the feature b) annoyed by AI use of Espionage. However, and again, way the game was designed to be played and it changes some core mechanics that change the game for the worse with it off like increasing culture cost of border pops

    3) Pangaea map - Basically this is about simplicity and learning. Most basic concepts can be learned on this map - especially Diplomacy and warfare - as all the civs are on one landmass. You will generally meet everyone early and have to deal with that fact with regards to diplomacy, possible wars (offensive defensive), expansion, trade, etc.

    4) Huts/Events Off. Most experienced play with these settings and it is recommended for learning as well. Not saying you can't use them later, but the important thing is that they give false impressions of your success or failure...like free gold and techs from huts. Events are just annoying. But it is all personal preference and some find them fun. But, for now, I recommend keeping them off.

    On another note, Leader does not really matter. Your roll of Willie may be random, but I suspect you might use him as a crutch as he is a good leader with excellent traits. FIN tends to be a crutch trait for less experienced players. But really it is how you play, not the leader, that matters. I like Washington of America as a good neutral/generic leader. He has "good" traits but not top tier traits, decent starting techs, and irrelevant UUs/UBs which are not part of your focus while learning.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2018
  7. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Hey OD...did a quick check on that save in World Builder. Really bizarre roll for a pangaea map. Hate to do this, but I really suggest rerolling a map again. Primary reason, and there are other reasons here, is that there is basically no food.

    Ideally, I'd like you to roll a start with at least one good food resource - think wet corn or wheat or pigs. Also, ideally non-coastal for now. You can roll a map with desired or random leader. Again, I suggest Washington, and if it doesn't look good you can regenerate the map in the current save but clicking Alt + G or using the menu option for regenerate map.

    Also, once we get a good roll to work from, I would like to here your thoughts - your though process so to speak - on what your first couple of moves would be. Of course, we will let you know what we think you would do, but understand your though process helps us dispel some of the bad habits you may have - or reinforce the good.
     
  8. OldDude

    OldDude Chieftain

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    Lymond,

    Hey thanks a lot for the great explanations on those options and your assumptions as to why I chose those options are spot on. Regarding the map, no problem. I'll roll a new one and update the OP with the files. By the way, I installed those mods as well. Thanks again.
     
  9. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    yep, I think we can work with this one :) Football is starting, so I will be in and out. As mentioned, please give your initial thoughts here.
     
  10. OldDude

    OldDude Chieftain

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    My initial thoughts/questions: First one is, do I settle right there or move so that I can grab the fish as well which would be 2N. Also, I'm not sure how these shadow games work so should I wait until suggestions are made before I do anything?

    I'm a football fan as well so I get it!

    Thanks.
     
  11. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Your settlet is standing on a plains hill.
    Settling a city on a plains hill gives the city tile an extra hammer. This is often desired and in many starting locations you check if there is any good plains hill (PH) to settle on. Here you get it for free.

    Best effect for these games is that you stop every few turns (or at relevant intervalls, such as when a build is finished and you shoudl choose something new, or when a tech is finished.)
    Best is if you as clearly as you can state what the map is telling you at each turn, what do you find of highest relevance and what do you plan on doing?

    Regarding the fish, I have my opinions, but it would be great if you ellaborate abit more.
    Compare the two options you have: SIP vs 2N for the fish.
    How would the two different options play out? What would you have to do in each?
     
  12. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Yes, wait for suggestions but the process is collaborative. Your input is helpful for one to give us an idea about how you currently think about things. Ask questions whenever, but also give your thoughts.

    No, you don't move for this fish here. In fact, I like my starting cap to ideally be non-coastal. Granted, coastal starts (seafood) are not an uncommon thing, but I've actually been inclined to move my settler inland if a better inland spot is nearby. One reason is that coastal starts are generally "slower" and second, ideally your start cap is Bureaucracy worth (more on that later).

    Settle in Place (SIP) can often be the rule for less experienced players - not getting direct advice, but often settler moves are warranted.

    So Turn 0 thoughts:

    1) Warrior/Scout is always moved first. The reason is that there purpose here is to help with identifying best settling position. Is SIP best or does moving that unit reveal a better location - that is something about the reveal that warrants the move?

    2) Analyze the revealed map at the start and the fog on the edge. You can kinda detect things in the fog like forests/jungle, rivers, terrain types, etc. All of which helps with settling decision.

    3) Settle or move settler if that is the decision

    4) If settled, select a tech that represents the best food available. If Civ already has that tech, go for other food tech that may be present or toward Bronze Working. (we can discuss this more later.

    5) Wooo..Falcons score!

    Another reason to move is to get a bonus to the center tile of the city...that Plains Hill, Sugar or maybe dry rice, Marble/Stone hill, etc. All of which provides an extra hammer or food to that tile. As long as you still have the food specials present too with that move. getting this bonus tile is not always available or simply prudent.

    Decision is quite easy here as you have a pretty nice start food wise, and nicely your settler is sitting right on a Plains Hill (PH), so when you settle on it you get a +1H on that tile. Speeds up first work and everything else..it's a permanent bonus, the benefit of which decreases over time, ofc, but the bonus is very nice early. And ..well..it's the early game success that is so important to this game.

    So SIP is that best move here. Decent/not great Bureaucracy type cap but may be workable. Palace can always be moved if better spot available.

    Cyrus decent leader. Charismatic is always nice to have. IMP is so/so trait but not bad.

    So anyway, back to your actual moves here:

    1) Scout is not in great position for revealing stuff...just one tile...but moving 1E is really than only obvious move here

    2) Settle in Place. Scout move is not going to change anything

    3) queue worker

    4) I'll write more in a bit on tech decision. But I would make those two moves and post up again.
     
  13. OldDude

    OldDude Chieftain

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    Thanks for the tips krikay! My thoughts on the two options:

    SIP: Like you said I get the free extra hammer. Plus there are 2 food sources so I should be fine there. There are tons of forests for chopping too which obviously speeds up city production.
    2N: That would give me 3 good food sources, which would mean I could probably turn my capital into a GP farm. Otherwise I don't see any other benefit. Am I missing something?

    Overall, I'm not very good at identifying how to specialize my cities. I tend to make them all "general purpose" but I'm trying to figure that out too.
     
  14. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    really good post by krikav. good example of questions during this process...as well as good advice

    pretty much A+ answer. You hit he main points, primarily of which is that you have sufficient food. Forest are certainly very nice indeed.

    GP farm is last of your concerns for a start cap, although there are cases where it simply works out that way on certain starts/maps. In case of startng cap it is mainly about food for production a...other specials also considered, but always food first. Bureaucracy is another consideration - think river tiles (grass and floodplains for cottages) for powerful Bureau cap using that civic later. But sometimes that simply does not present itself.

    Also, should be noted that moving 2N requires 2 turns to move there. Certainly not worth it for that move

    understandable. We'll cover that concept later
     
  15. OldDude

    OldDude Chieftain

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    I settled in place, queued worker and started researching Animal Husbandry.
    Spoiler Turn 1 :
    Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG
     

    Attached Files:

  16. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Okay....meant to discuss tech decision here before going to next turn..

    Now..here is the deal. AH is obviously a good choice here with the pigs tile, but there is another important consideration here. Worker turns (idle worker turns) and production. You basically have a Big Fat Cross full of forests with two improvable tiles before forests are removed. I likely would consider going straight to Bronze Working (BW) here so that a) I can mine the pigs tile early - nice tile! b) start choppin'. Another consideration - really for higher difficulty - is the benefit of early BW/slavery but also the expense of AH.

    So, I think BW is definitely the best move here. I would reload back to Turn 0 and do this.

    So you are basically forgoing AH for now for faster overall production from chops/slavery and reducing idle worker turns. I think you may still have a couple waiting for BW to finish, but that is okay. It happens sometimes depending on start location and leader start techs
     
  17. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Something that could be thought about, regarding the 2N option.
    You would have to fit in fishing somewhere in your techpath. Perhaps this is of very little issue on nobles, but as you move up in difficulties tech start to get really costly and often you have to make tough decisions, like mining sheep/pig hills to postpone AH to reach other techs in time.

    Another thing I thought about was workermoves, if you would wander north your first worker would also have to wander through the forest to reach the wheat and the pigs.
    Another minor detail is that if you settle in place, you can work a tile that gives 3 food/hammers and one commerce right away, if you settle 2N you would have to accept just 3foodhammers. Losing you 5 (or is it 6?) commerce before your borderpop.

    Just saw your screenshot after settling.
    Do you see any new information that makes you adjust your plan?
    Come to think of it, do talk abit of your plan! :)
     
  18. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Saw Lymonds answer and I basically agree, but I would like to point out that persias unique unit, the immortal is really awesome and that would give AH early to reveal horses at least abit higher priority than usual.
    Probably BW first wins by a great margin though.
    I just can't stand a worker staying idle...
    There is a famous quote that says "Pawns are the soul of chess", and I think that for this game, it's the workers that are the soul.

    Abit afraid to scare you off with too much math and theorycrafting... but consider how many hammers you would get per turn by a chopping worker.
     
  19. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I did a quick check, and on Nobles it's just 2 turns idle.
     
  20. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Normally for first 5 turns I cancel all science techs. Not sure how many techs the AI really start with on Noble. Tech rate on Noble for the player is much quicker.

    BW first seems logical. You get a 50% bonus on settler production with your traits. Of course you will still want to work the food resource first. Growth while you chop into settlers. 2-3 chops and you have a settler.

    Rivers will be nice for cottages. I count 6-7 grassland under those forest that need to be cleared.
     
    Farbulous likes this.

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