Shadow Game: Immortal w/ Sitting Bull

Spoiler T140 - the whippings will continue until morale improves :

T139 cont - switched village from Chako to capital, switched to forge in Parthian, switched civics to theo & slavery
T140 - canceled crabs deal with Qin, 2 pop whipped HA in MC and Barrcks in Chaco, 3 pop whipped Forge in Djenne

Kumbi chopped too early, if you whip barracks there will be so many overflow:hammers:
So I shouldn't whip? Or do I accept the mistake and the lost hammers and whip anyway?

Another whip question: when do you 1 pop whip, if ever? For instance, a HA in PP; is it usually just too inefficient?

About mods, which one is recommended? I was concerned that the AI changes in BAT would interfere with learning the game.

And a meta note, going to try for two play sessions a week, see if we can finish the game this century :p




  • MrBungler AD-0600_SB_immortal_T140.CivBeyondSwordSave
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Researching compass before gunpowder clears the lib bulb, you get more beakers per bulb before you whip your cities to nothing and once you've bulbed you can get into some tech trading before you go to war.
All true ofc..i guess hoping for compass via trade isn't too realistic on Immortal.

BAT would be totally okay, but some don't have it installed. I would pick Buffy..then you flow with the stream.

You could put Kumbi's:hammers: into a longbow. They are excellent city capture defenders for later.
Whipping while losing :hammers: isn't recommended (at least not by me :)) + you have plenty HAs.

1 pop whips can be fine. For example early granaries..or workers in a size 2 city with only 1 good tile.
Or very early rushes i.e. with Axes, where you urgently need more units.
There are instant benefits from those whips..basically only do them if you really want no delay.
@MrBungler I checked the save and I have to tell you that the game will not hard any longer :cool:
You should start by switching research to Compass immediately (you can get it in 2 turns if you assign cities to research) then sell it for a few hundred coins.
Then bulb lib, complete lib (>MT probably :groucho:) complete a few more HA (Calculate: it costs 170:commerce: to upgrade each baby cuir :pat:) and finish Gunpowder.
After that whip moar and stomp Bella :trouble:

Edit: You don't need to 1 pop whip every HA that is above 19/50:hammers:.
You could wait for after MT when they'll be 2 or 3 pop whipable (is that proper Engrish? :hmm:) which might be slightly more efficient and depends on the tiles you could be working by growing.
- Kumbi Saleh: whip barracks and stable
- Djenne: grow please
- Parthian: whip please (stable)
I would also whip a stable in Cahokia and Timbuktu but I'd prioritize getting Compass in 2 turns so don't queue those at the cost of that :yeah:
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Having more HAs than you can afford to upgrade isn't bad :)
They can run along with Cuirs as cleanup units (AIs love doing silly stuff like a stack of unprotected cats), and they are available for upgrade later if gold comes around.
Can also pillage with them (nice synergy :lol: ).

edit: whipping a stable in bur. caps sounds wrong. I mean with a mine or 2 they can build that in 2 turns.
I dun like stables much if units start with 5xp already.
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Thanks @soundjata and @Fippy, seems like the way forward is mostly clear. I'll try to blend your suggestions, leaning away from stables I think - in my last game on the forum, sampsa said his rule of thumb for stables was 0 or 1 (for HA rushes specifically, but I think it still applies for cuirs). Now hearing Fippy also demure makes me extra cautious.

Spoiler T142 - whip it good :

T140 cont - switched to Compass (Cahokia researching brings turns down to 2), Kumbi switched to longbow and whipped
T141 - 2 pop whipped barracks in Kumbi, 3 pop whipped HA in Timbuk, workers building roads
T142 - lib bulbed and being researched, hocked around the compass for much profit, 4 pop whipped Forge in Parthian

should I again 3 pop whip in Timbuktu? That whips away a lot of commerce? Also, I have 2 forests near Cahokia 1 turn from chopping, are there timing considerations?




  • MrBungler AD-0640_SB_immortal_T142.CivBeyondSwordSave
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Now you've bulbed lib you can trade for machinery to open other techs for trading, engineering would be useful, maybe guilds. With rax and theo you don't really need stables.
Bit confused why you consider 3-pop in Timbu, cold whips are inefficient in most cases.
For that much you already get Cuirs + overflow soon.
Switch lake for mine and we have another HA in 2t :)
(green mines are now 4 :hammers: with a forge)

Parthian misses Hindu, i'd say finish HA in Cahokia then 1 turn a mish.
Sal looks like the best trade for machinery now (music + compass).
Mansa and maybe someone else will trade guilds afterwards..that would turn HA builds into knights.
Prolly best to finish some more HAs before (like bringing PP down to 2t).

Forest chops are especially important early game, make a plan on when you want :hammers: :)
If you prefer upgrading (i have plenty gold) use them now for HAs, if you think nooo let's save gold wait until they can be chopped into cuirs.
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why you consider 3-pop in Timbu
because I'm old and starting to forget basic things :old: thanks for being patient

Spoiler T144 - respect for excessive authority and obsolete tradition :

T142 cont - switched lake for mine, traded with sal for machinery, switched plains cottage for mine in PP
T143 - building hindu mish in Cahokia
T144 - lib teched -> MT, researching Gunpowder, traded Guilds for Paper and 815:gold: with Mansa, hindu mish done and heads for Parth, GM reaches Beijing, improved deals with Willem & Toku

Is there any benefit to upgrading HA to Knight before Cuir? Any detriment?

Any reason to wait before cashing in the GM? Money is draining fast, and will be upgrading soon.




  • MrBungler AD-0680_SB_immortal_T144.CivBeyondSwordSave
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Couple of answers inside :)

Spoiler T144 - respect for excessive authority and obsolete tradition :

Is there any benefit to upgrading HA to Knight before Cuir? Any detriment?
Don't do that because the cost of upgrading has a fixed part + a variable part so you'll lose in that deal (i forgot the exact formula...)
Any reason to wait before cashing in the GM? Money is draining fast, and will be upgrading soon.
The only reason would be if you expect to grow your capitol or the opponent's. (i think thresholds are size 12, 15, 18 etc...) Probably irrelevant in this game. => Cash out whenever.

Edit: I ran a quick test : The exact formula for upgrading units seems to be 3X+20, X being the difference in hammers between the 2 units.
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Not a deal you should ever make, in any game ;)
Do not pay larger gold amounts for's fine giving away a little to round up deals.
But with little i mean 150 max or so.

On a scale of mistakes this ranks at 10/10.
wait..what :eek:
You gave him 815g?
I was reading: MrBungler has extracted large amounts of gold from Mansa Musa => very good :smug:

As if Mansa would even need money :lol:
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The exact formula for upgrading units seems to be 3X+20
Ok, so that +20 per upgrade adds up, makes it inefficient to upgrade more often than necessary. Thanks for the lookup :)

Spoiler T144 take 2 - now with less fail :

Exactly as above, but without the trade with Mansa



  • MrBungler AD-0680_SB_immortal_T144.CivBeyondSwordSave
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Cahokia can get a discounted university this turn..i think that's nice.
Not a build i'd consider in other cities at this time, but a capital should prolly get one with PHI.
Notice how the hindu monastery gives +2 :hammers: :)
AP hammers are good but others cities should focus on units for now.

We want GP in 2t and can look at beakers again next turn, maybe the Uni does enuf.

Move an old unit into Cahokia as well, only HAs in there and they will leave soon.

We can keep things simple and let other cities continue with HA builds which turn into Cuirs in 2t (and can then be whipped or forest chopped).
Parthian can finish one last HA that's okay.
Just make sure the GP beakers work out next turn.

So we dun need guilds for away Natio would be annoying.
Spoiler T145 - know well what leads you forward :

T144 cont - moved archer towards Cahokia and switched there to uni
T145 - With uni built and Cahokia building research, GP in 1 turn. GM cashed out in Beijing for 1500g, mish spreads Hinduism to Parthian




  • MrBungler AD-0700_SB_immortal_T145.CivBeyondSwordSave
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