Shadow Game: Immortal w/ Sitting Bull

It’s under discussed that the most problematic neighbour in civ is not Shaka but the five year old sat next to you asking what you’re doing.
spoken like a true man of experience ;)

the route you go down depends on what you want to get out of the game.
Well, as said, I want what is good in life, to
crush my enemies, see them driven before me, hear the lamentations

But jokes aside, you're making good points here. Winning is a more shallow, short-term goal; learning is a deeper, long-term goal.

Before your post, I leaned towards switching strategies; now I'm leaning towards sticking with Construction. Either way, I can info gather before committing. Thanks for the feedback.
Stop doubting yourself and just play out the game. I don't think construction is clearly inferior to horseback riding.
Only found 30 minutes to play today :(

Spoiler T78 :

T77 cont - begged Archery, researching Sailing 1 turn til Math bulbs, whipped Barracks in capital, switching Poverty and Mound to Workers, retasking existing Workers: two prechopping w/ roads, and one roading towards Mansa

T78 - GS bulbs Math, building Worker in Capital (might be more than strictly necessary, but I like the buffer of another Worker), whipped Workers 4&5 in Poverty and Mound, now teching Construction - 11 turns at 100% will cost 187 (of 218)

Neither Mansa nor Willy will trade IW, we'll see. Waited till after Math bulbed, now ready to convert to Hinduism - not sure if waiting gained me anything tho



  • MrBungler BC-0925_SB_immortal_T78.CivBeyondSwordSave
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Hmm no ironworking to trade. Maybe China will tech it soon.

Roading desert hill is a mistake as road takes 3 turns.

Maybe work fur for now. Guess fish online soon. 13 turns for construction.
Spoiler T82 - Strike the earth! :

T78 cont - work Fur in Mound

T79 - convert to Hinduism, Workers 4&5 begin roading/pre-chopping, WB improves Fish

T80&81 - continuing to road/pre-chop

T82 - Worker 5 finishes in Capital, Qin trades IW for Math, Iron found N of Capital :D

Last round of DS, will switch to Swords once Iron online, Worker five will join the pre-chop party for the remaining few turns




  • MrBungler BC-0825_SB_immortal_T82.CivBeyondSwordSave
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I knew that tile looked suspicious :lol:

I’d switch to swords as soon as the iron is connected rather than finish the dog soldiers. They’re better and prebuilding without finishing units helps keep costs down. I’d also prebuild a chariot or two now rather than just dogs because they’re useful as medics, scouts and for killing stray axes - although not sure Moussa has metal. If he’s got horses, prebuilding a couple of spears once the metal is online would be good too.
What's the best ratio of melee to siege? I tend to go for more siege because I generally bombard then attack with siege (taking losses) then mop up with melee (with minimal losses). On the other hand I'm not one of the immortal deities.
Vs Mansa at least 50/50 as I would fully bombard due to SKirmishers. So at least 10 catapults.
10 to start a war is a massive overkill IMO, though maybe G means 10 cats total produced. Mansa doesn't spam units, has only 3 cities and current power ratio is 0,9. It also seems like you will have plenty of dogs, so even 4-5 should be enough to declare, then add more of course. I don't think the best ratio of melee to siege is that important. If you have more melee vs siege you suicide less cats and maybe take some melee casualties. I don't think you can expect his capital to have more than 4 skirmishers, and by that time you should be able to deal with even 7-8 units.

Checked the save. You need to improve worker management! Don't waste time building useless roads, combine your workers to execute the most urgent things asap. Most important things to do in no particular well thought order: 1)improve iron (no reason to use only one worker for that duty) 2)cottage the green grass between Cahokia and Mound City 3)chop the forest towards granary in Choco, whip granary (should've been done much earlier, getting granary up is very important) 4)connect to Mansa for trade routes. I close to never do things that I consider urgent using a single worker, use several because things get done faster.

Game is going very well, keep up the good work! :thumbsup:
Game is going very well, keep up the good work! :thumbsup:
Thanks @sampsa! :D

Most important things to do
Those priorities sound reasonable - just also different from the other advice I've been getting, or my understanding of that advice. How would you prioritize roading/pre-chopping forests to prepare for quick cat building? Is it all important, so I should have built more workers?

Expecting to play tonight - my plan has been to continue pre-chopping/roading, while pre-building swords/spears/chariots once iron is online. Definitely see the value of another worker improving the iron, if it makes sense to re-route one at this point - i'll have to be looking at the game before I could begin to judge that.

Once Construction techs, planning to follow the plan given by Mr_Trotsky for building cats, alternating whips and chops - I'll have to feel it out, try to understand it better in the moment.

4-5 should be enough to declare
I hear that, and will keep those numbers in mind. Probably I'll stop anyway and check in with the forum before declaring.
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My reason for more was losses of cats. Not sure the starting odds will be great Vs skirmishers. If you only build 4-5 then bombarding holds less value. My guess is you might lose 2-3 on his capital. It's on a hill too?

I don't do that many rushes against Mansa till I get better units. I did the maths on how to chop forest and workers required but if you are whipping granaries are important too. I was surprised you skipped the cottages. You didn't need all the workers on road/ forest. You built 3 more.
How would you prioritize roading/pre-chopping forests to prepare for quick cat building? Is it all important, so I should have built more workers?
I would not road+pre-chop, because it loses worker turns if those roads are unnecessary. Rather I'd lose one worker turn moving to a forest twice (first time to pre-chop, second time to chop). You are 8T away from construction, so just plan it so that you can immediately chop several cats asap. Not sure if you have time to do all the things I listed even. I think you have easily enough workers, you are just not using them optimally.
I hear that, and will keep those numbers in mind. Probably I'll stop anyway and check in with the forum before declaring.
You should take a look what he has, what cities are on hills etc. I tend to write labels with Alt+s like HILL, 2 skrm+sp+ax and so on.
I'll think it through in-game, see what makes sense given the time remaining - and surely make more mistakes, only way to learn :) Appreciate all the feedback!
Spoiler T90 - Construction teched :

T83 - Worker shuffle (1 additional to iron, 1 to cottage grassland, 1 towards Chaco forest)

T84 - Isabella settles nearby, declares me worst enemy

T85 - Iron mined and roaded, building Swords in Mound, Capital, Poverty

T86 - whipped (prebuilt) Swords in 3 cities

T88 - Granary finished in Chaco, building Sword? (very low hammers here, not sure what to build)

T90 - Construction finished, slider 0%, 3 largest cities building cats, warrior-scout confirms Mansa has iron, road connected with Mansa

Standing army @ T90 (not including garrison):

6 Dog Soldiers + 1 pre-built
2 Spear
1 Sword + 2 pre-built
1 Chariot




  • MrBungler BC-0625_SB_immortal_T90.CivBeyondSwordSave
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You want 19 hammers or less in a catapult to 2 pop whip. 20 is not good unless you plan to chop into it the follow turn.
Ideally you wanted to chop forest the turn you got catapults. Or whip them the turn after.
Mansa has construction so hopefully he will whip catapults instead of skirmishers.
If no city wall then maybe bombard 1 turn. Otherwise odds will be 1-2% at best on first catapult. Odds for DS vs half strength skirmishers could be as low as 33% on a hill. Swords more like 80%. Which is why swords matter.
Fights not on hills should be better. Skirmishers get +25% on hills like archers. Which doubles up as all units get +25% for hills. plus 25% fortification. + 50% city defence. Plus cultural defence if you don't bombard. 5 catapults may be enough for first city. Pends how many survive and early dice rolls.

This all assumes Mansa does not bribe others into the war. So China might be good to bribe into war.

I would definately post before you declare. Mansa is not a unit spammer but his str 4 skirmisher with the extra first strike makes his cities harder to take. On a hill city almost 185% (60% culture included.) bonus on strength, (Of course it doesn't work quite like that.)

Had you gone HA 6-7 of them could of taken city on good dice roll. Plus reached it in 2 turns. Plus immune to first strike. This is why people often go HA rush.
I think you kinda need to go straight to the capital, which is on a hill, so I'd try to have quite a lot of cats. You need to bombard it to close to 0% IMO, otherwise casualties are high. Good news is you have plenty of units. Declare at maybe 7-8 cats ready to move in?

The good news is that once you capture the capital, the rest should be very easy.
Agreed with @sampsa the taking of Timbuktu is an important turning point in your game.
Strike fast! The more catapults the better.

Optimally, one should have a strict production plan (For example start sword > chop cata > whip sword > chop cata > ...)
However, it is hard to predict everything and 1 pop whips should not be avoided imo.
Disregard angry population for a little while. Disregard coins for a little while, focus on bread as 15:food: ~ 30:hammers: (at low pop) if I ain't too senile :old:

During war, luring tactics must be good in your situation
Try to lure a part of Mansa stack away from Timbuktu while you take position. Ready up a few sacrificial units :o
I think what is nice in a catapult attack is that war tactics are not too difficult. Move, bombard, cause collateral, take. I guess what you need to be aware is that your stack is protected against what the opponent has. But for example here, dogs protect you from his melee. He won't have HAs I guess and a single spear defends from that. You can also move in forest to be safe.

While HAs are in my opinion stronger, the war tactics can be more complicated. You should be very flexible and opportunistic with 2-movers.
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