Shadow Game - Is this just a map *I* can not beat?

[Build2Much]

I think I might have found one. Playing on Immortal, just can not find a way to win, no matter how well I think I've done in the early game. Anyone want a crack at "Hannibal Impossible?" I will add context if anyone wants it, but for now just posting the game and opening screenshot.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

This looks more like a good practice map than an impossible one

Spoiler :

Isolation can be confusing at first but it really is simple if you look into Isolation 101. It basically revolves around an Astronomy beeline, with double bulb from great scientists.
This implies not researching Civil Service and not unlocking Philosophy. Thread "Great People Tech Preference" is a useful assist.

You need to set up a core Empire with at least 5 cities, more depending on the quality of the land and, especially, Libraries early enough that you get Great Scientists in time.
It is customary to make a minimal detour on the way to Compass-Optics-Astro to secure happiness. Could be Pyramids for Representation or Monarchy for Hereditary Rule.
The more extra techs you detour for, the more Astronomy is delayed (brings tech trades, overseas trade routes and resource trades), so you do have to make sure they are worth it.

 

[Build2Much]

Thanks for looking. And I agree with you which is why I’m so frustrated!

Spoiler :

The problem isn’t the isolation (although the lack of any happiness made me work on my monarchy gaming). I followed one of Henriks Hannibal videos and I can beat his dates on this map to Astronomy. I meet everyone and can trade Metal casting for Alphabet. I can not figure out how to win from there though. One of the AIs becomes an absolute monster in every game (multiple vassals before I can get there) and another AI will win by culture if I don’t take them out, but often they peace vassal to the monster. I’ve tried attacking everyone at this point, by the time I get a foothold I’m being dominated in tech.

GNP my last run when I stopped, I was at around 2000, monster AI was over 5000.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Fair enough,

Spoiler :

I thought perhaps you lacked information, since Iso is so specific. A runaway AI will indeed prove difficult.
Perhaps you need more efficient ways to rush production for your invasion It is sometimes detrimental to whip cities into the ground.

I will be going away for the week-end and then some, so I am unable to give any perspective about the late game.
I'm sure some folks on the forum will

 

[Fippy]

What's your main attacking unit?

 

[Tecumseh1]

Played to T46 and recorded a video (will share once it's uploaded to YT).

Some more thoughts:

In isolation you have to stay disciplined with tech path (minimal detours) and don't over expand as maintenance cost really hurts without tech or resource trading. In this map you don't have stone or marble which is kinda a blessing, as you can just focus on cottages, moderate expansion to 5-6 cities, and beeline optics. I don't think you even need Monarchy here (pre Optics) as charismatic allows for working 4-5 cottages (or financial coastal ones) in all cities.

 

[Tecumseh1]

Edit:

Alphabet would be a worthwhile detour I reckon. Maybe better than Monarchy.

 

[Fippy]

Actually i would

Spoiler :

love to have stone on every Iso map..Pyras just solve all those problems easily

 

[BornInCantaloup]

I don't think you even need Monarchy here (pre Optics) as charismatic allows for working 4-5 cottages (or financial coastal ones) in all cities.

This is a very good point

Spoiler :

The point of Monarchy is it allows to develop cottage tiles, provided you have enough food. In Iso, you'd rather expand Tall than Wide.
CHA + Monument gives an easy 6 happy cap. I didn't factor that in and it could be more than enough. Especially if there are convenient helper cities for the capital.
If you can't do that, then the advance on cottages could still justify a delay on Astro (tbd).

I don't see the appeal of Alphabet, however ? Just building research ? You need to build quite a lot just to make up for it.
If you're worried about having to dump production into units, you should rather go easy on the whip, perhaps not rush infra as you would otherwise.
In some cases, you could even go Library before Granary (probably not, this more of a 4 happy cap thing).

 

[Tecumseh1]

Very true

This is a very good point

Spoiler :

The point of Monarchy is it allows to develop cottage tiles, provided you have enough food. In Iso, you'd rather expand Tall than Wide.
CHA + Monument gives an easy 6 happy cap. I didn't factor that in and it could be more than enough. Especially if there are convenient helper cities for the capital.
If you can't do that, then the advance on cottages could still justify a delay on Astro (tbd).

I don't see the appeal of Alphabet, however ? Just building research ? You need to build quite a lot just to make up for it.
If you're worried about having to dump production into units, you should rather go easy on the whip, perhaps not rush infra as you would otherwise.
In some cases, you could even go Library before Granary (probably not, this more of a 4 happy cap thing).

Yeah I think one of Monarchy or Alpha here would be OK, but definitely not both. When I've tried skipping both on isolation maps I find being left wanting a bit.. Don't you want libraries bit more quickly? Hard to get enough GS for Optics/Astro bulbs with just 1 library in capital. I think optics bulb on these maps are pretty good as the earlier tech trading has a lot of value if you can snag currency and stuff on the first turn meeting someone. After library the list of useful stuff becomes close to 0.

My thinking is that 5 city empire can build research for > 20 hammers per turn. And it takes a while from writing + monarchy/alpha to optics (i guess less so with financial though). Alpha also allows optics bulb (but need math too then). But these are all techs you want anyways and are too cheap to want to trade for after meeting AIs.

 

[Tecumseh1]

My video up to T46 if anyone is interested. Definitely feel free to critique my play. Made a few sloppy mistakes like whipping settler 1 turn late. I'll blame video process

 

[Tecumseh1]

I know OP is asking more about breakout attack, but start has me thinking as well.


I went Agriculture -> BW -> AH. But maybe skipping Agriculture and going Hunting -> AH -> BW is better? I mined the pig which always feels dirty. AH before BH would allow second city on pig spot. I ended up settling second city south with wheat on desert hill.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Your posted map and difficulty, no.

The RNG defeats players, not maps.

If an animal ate your warrior at 99% odds, or, the Apostolic Palace elects a winner immediately after a religion spreads to one of your cities, then you lose. But this happens even with the best maps.

 

[soundjata]

Just a conjecture but

Spoiler :

Monarchy before AH looks plausible on such a map.
In isolation, food is not so important

 

[Build2Much]

Appreciate all the responses - wasn’t sure what I would get, but figured I’d give it a shot before putting this map on the shelf. I haven’t watched the video yet, I will now that I see it exists!

I started yet another game and took notes through the first 65 turns, which is my “decision point”.

Spoiler :

Warrior NW, Settler 1S PH

Carthage T2, AG tech, worker build

Warrior finds C2 spot between rice and pig

T6 warrior is fog busting 6W4N of Carthage

T11 start Wheel

T13 worker, start warrior move to farm corn

T19 move to mine pig

T21 warrior out, start settler

T23 warrior stops 3W3N to fog bust, pigs are mined

T24 start road from pig to pig

T30 get pottery, start AH

T32 settler out, warrior

T33 found Utica. Start farming rice. Warrior build in Utica

T34 warrior out Carthage. Start warrior.

T37 settle warrior in Carthage , start worker. Warrior 3 fog busting 5E1S

T38 rice done, move towards cottage for capitol

Turn 42 warrior east defeats archer. Cottage done. Micro Utica (work water tile) to complete AH

T43 find horse in Carthage. Worker 1 goes to pasture pig in Utica. Worker 2 pasture horse. Barracks Carthage build. Bronze Working.

T46 Utica warrior done, settled. Start settler. Horse and pig are done.

T49 mining Utica hill. Cottage Carthage.

T50 barracks done. Start chariot.

T51 mine finish. Carthage border pop 3.

T52 Carthage size 5. Working 2 cottages, corn, horse, mined pig.

T54 BW finish. Start Mysticism. Wait to switch to slavery. Chariot 1 out. Start chariot 2.

T55 Utica settler out. Start worker. Move to settle on east fog busting warrior. Utica working pig, rice, cottage.

T56 Carthage cottage 3 finishes. Working 3 cottages, horse, mined pigs. Not working corn to maximize hammers.

T57 Mysticism. Start writing. Zero slider for a turn.

T58 chariot 2 out. Start monument. Switch to slavery. Workers are both chopping in different cities. Settler 3 reaches destination.

T59 found Hadrumetum. Connected via river, no cost. Start monument. Leave slider at zero 1 more turn.

T65 writing done. Been some fun with barbs, lost a warrior. Carthage is working 4 cottages, mined pigs, horse. Utica working rice, pig, mine, cottage. Had to move worker near Utica because of barb archer, currently chopping monument. Hadrumetum building monument, working flood plain. Worker is building a cottage.

Now I’ve done both, but I have to decide if I go monarchy detour or just keep going forward to Astro. I also need to get the GS going soon.

 

[Build2Much]

Your posted map and difficulty, no.

The RNG defeats players, not maps.

If an animal ate your warrior at 99% odds, or, the Apostolic Palace elects a winner immediately after a religion spreads to one of your cities, then you lose. But this happens even with the best maps.

It’s really that I can’t figure out how to beat the AI on this map. Even with prior knowledge I cant find a way. 2-3 months ago I would have been playing on Monarch or maybe Emperor and would have been fine (I think). Was hoping a little group think might teach me something? Felt bad that I was just going to give up!

 

[Build2Much]

What's your main attacking unit?

Spoiler :

I have tried everything I can think of. First attempts (most attempts) were cannons knights and grenadiers. I’ve also ignored the steel path and gotten Lib to deny the AI and gone Cuirs. I’ve even detoured to build Numidians first that I can upgrade to cuirs/cavs for the extra promotion (wasn’t terrible tbh, but also wasn’t any better). 10+ ships, 30+ units 1200-1300AD initial landing. There are a couple of AI I know I can take out to get on the big continent, but if I go after the big guy it is always 2 or 3 vs 1 and I lose too much waiting for reinforcements, wind up wasting too many units and falling behind. When I’ve tried to take it really late, my tanks are running into gunships mechs and jets. Plus one of the AIs is usually a vassal and will win culture, the if the monster doesn’t land their spaceship first.

The AI has a 3-4 civ block that will trade everything to each other as well, so once they start rolling it snowballs and I fall behind, even though I feel so far ahead at Astro. I may as well trade a tech to everyone on the same turn because they will all have it the next turn anyway!

 

[Build2Much]

My video up to T46 if anyone is interested. Definitely feel free to critique my play. Made a few sloppy mistakes like whipping settler 1 turn late. I'll blame video process

If you continue, I’m definitely interested to see where you are in 19 turns compared to where I am at that point. I have gone on different tech paths, but I used the one I like the best where I get cottages out earlier. I also should have whipped the monument in Utica, especially when the barb archer made me move to the hill and stop building a cottage. Might stop chopping now that the coast is clear and save the chop for a library.

 

[Fippy]

I would def. go AH after Agri here.
Cha means more happy, more use for food early..mining pigs always feel wrong to me in those cases.
If there are other AH resources close as well (which they are..i think we don't need spoilers for that ).

And that means i would play a delayed BW start as well.
Strong capital production, FIN leader..pottery before chopping please.

 

[soundjata]

Oh yeah, it's all about flavor, like coffee
Do you like you Bronze topped with Pottery or you prefer your AH first? Hammers or Gold or Food?

@BornInCantaloup please help me remember in which song they say "I like my sugar with coffee and cream!"

One has to try though, don't they?

Edit: @Fippy your comment above is based on IMM difficulty?
On deity, this map has to be brutal (ISO Mao style) because it's so much land...
>> crash the eco building warriors
>> AH is a luxury?