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Shadow Game - Monarch Cyrus Flood Plains

I thought of one very clear improvement. 2nd city should whip a settler and cap should build that worker. Not sure if timings work as well as in the game but you win what 10:hammers: from IMP bonus.
Actually, I did notice that working the plains forest did produce settlers a turn faster than working a cottaged FP. I assume that is preferable to growing the cottage (at least until I chop the forest).
 
Sorry friends, but I think I have to abandon this map here. Given how many mistakes I've made so far, I just don't trust myself to proceed, and as much as I need guidance on how to improve, my mental health right now really isn't liking the scrutiny.

I'm second-guessing every potential decision and getting nowhere. Say I want to settle Ivory... I still don't know where. The hill in the centre of all the ivory looks good to me. I can also see a case for the spot 1NW of that (proximity to capital), or 1SW (further from Sumeria but still on a hill). I have no idea how to even amass a decent sized army (how many units?) quickly (how many turns?). I know I should already have a feel for this by now, but I don't.

I even restarted the map trying to take on board everything that was said, and I'm still not sure I'm any better off, so I'm feeling like a lost cause right now, and that's not going to be fun for any of us.

Anyway, sorry again, and thanks everyone for trying to help.
Honestly, I don't see any problems with your position. If your goal is to play like a sampsa from one day to the next, that's really not very realistic. If your goal is to play and improve and win, you are good to go. Just because there are things the pros would have done differently (and there always will be!) doesn't mean your position is lost.
 
Actually, I did notice that working the plains forest did produce settlers a turn faster than working a cottaged FP. I assume that is preferable to growing the cottage (at least until I chop the forest).
I would in general clearly favor working the cottage. 2:commerce: is better than 1:hammers: (something that the governor doesn't agree with though!).
 
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I was able to get pretty close to your situation (not as many cottages, but that's probably because I sent a worker over to pasture the sheep - feel free to explain why this was wrong because it seemed valid to me). I decided to play on to see how much of a difference that starting position made.
I settled the spot T52 I think so it claims a flood plain thanks to cap border pop. I just felt something (chop?) was more urgent than 1:food:1:hammers: (edited 1:commerce: away) in a city that is not so important. I'm sure the difference is not big and improving sheep asap might be better even.
 
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If your goal is to play and improve and win, you are good to go.
Of course that is the goal. My problem is that nothing I have tried has resulted in any significant improvement. Most of the time I can't even see where I went wrong. Emulation, and attempting to understand, then extrapolate, is all I have left. If you can suggest another method of improving, I'd be grateful to hear it. At this point, I'll try anything.

And yes, there's a small chance that i'm taking this game altogether too seriously. I don't know when or how my self respect and worth as a human being got tied to my ability to play Civ, but this is where I find myself. I'm smart, I swear. :crazyeye:
 
Suffice to say that despite obliterating two AIs, my economy crashed about 100 turns later, never to recover.

I assume you went with catapults? What was your tech path after? I think Currency is always a good option after Construction, trying to get to it with the conquest gold. It scales well economically with the number of cities. This can be followed by Code of Laws (maybe can trade Construction or Currency for it if you're lucky) and Civil Service for a straight economic path. Courthouses are expensive, but if at some point you have conquered cities with 8+ gold maintenance and not much commerce, a courthouse may be the best investment there.
 
I assume you went with catapults? What was your tech path after?
After construction I went:
- HBR for Elephants
- Iron Working for clearing all the jungle
- Archery for HA and because I can't build warriors anymore (2 move units can be helpful and it's cheap)
- Aesthetics for trading (got alpha and mysticism for it for it a couple of turns later)
- Sailing->Calendar for all the plantations (gold/happy/health)
- Currency
- MC on the way to Machinery
- Poly+ Meditation (traded can't remember what I gave up for them, but it wasn't important)

I do normally go for Currency earlier than this, but I wanted to go all in on this war to try to wrap it up as quickly as possible. Plus, I was getting some serious unhappiness from all the whipping.

Tech trades are another area where I could use some improvement. Not especially useful in this game, however, because everyone refused to trade anything good with me which I find is fairly common on Monarch. I only ever trade any serious military techs (HBR, Construction, guilds, steel, rifling, etc) to my vassals. I'll happily give up economic techs (Calendar, Currency, etc). In fact, in some cases I'll almost give Calendar away so that I can trade for some resource that an AI has but can't improve yet. Some techs I'll only trade after I've won (or lost) the Liberalism race (Philosophy, Paper, Education).
 

Attachments

After construction I went:
- HBR for Elephants
- Iron Working for clearing all the jungle
- Archery for HA and because I can't build warriors anymore (2 move units can be helpful and it's cheap)
- Aesthetics for trading (got alpha and mysticism for it for it a couple of turns later)
- Sailing->Calendar for all the plantations (gold/happy/health)
- Currency
- MC on the way to Machinery
- Poly+ Meditation (traded can't remember what I gave up for them, but it wasn't important)

I do normally go for Currency earlier than this, but I wanted to go all in on this war to try to wrap it up as quickly as possible. Plus, I was getting some serious unhappiness from all the whipping.

Tech trades are another area where I could use some improvement. Not especially useful in this game, however, because everyone refused to trade anything good with me which I find is fairly common on Monarch. I only ever trade any serious military techs (HBR, Construction, guilds, steel, rifling, etc) to my vassals. I'll happily give up economic techs (Calendar, Currency, etc). In fact, in some cases I'll almost give Calendar away so that I can trade for some resource that an AI has but can't improve yet. Some techs I'll only trade after I've won (or lost) the Liberalism race (Philosophy, Paper, Education).
It's really hard to know where you go wrong without examples. Can we see that turn at which you say your economy crashed? Or where you gave up? That makes it easier to diagnose the problems (if there are any at all). Maybe you're just overthinking it?
 
It's really hard to know where you go wrong without examples. Can we see that turn at which you say your economy crashed? Or where you gave up? That makes it easier to diagnose the problems (if there are any at all). Maybe you're just overthinking it?
Well, the last 20 or so turns of the war I was running down my economy at 0% science slider. The only thing keeping me afloat was the gold I was getting from capturing cities. Once the war was over, and I had most of my empire building commerce, I was barely breaking even. So that T166 save above is when I realised that my position was unlikely to recover - or at the very least I was not in the overwhelming position I *should* be in at this stage on this level. I certainly wasn't going to beat anyone to guilds, liberalism or astronomy. I didn't bother playing beyond that.

Spoiler T116 - Declared War :

Break even was approx 38% science slider

T116 Financial Advisor.png




So some time between ☝️ and 👇 everything fell apart, but I was too focused on winning the war to notice. Plus, when you're whipping off mature cottages, you expect to take a financial hit. I've got all the autosaves from that game, so if there are specific markers that I should be looking for, I can track them down for you.

Spoiler T144 - First Enemy Falls :


T144 Financial Advisor.png







Spoiler T166 Advisor Screens :

T166 Financial Advisor.png



T166 Tech Trade Screen.png


Napoleon has pikes, so my position compared to his is worse than it looks. It also means I won't feel comfortable attacking him until I've got maces or knights (maybe even crossbows in a pinch) but I'm not getting to any of those any time soon.



T166 Military Advisor.png

T166 Tech Tree.png

 
Well, the last 20 or so turns of the war I was running down my economy at 0% science slider. The only thing keeping me afloat was the gold I was getting from capturing cities. Once the war was over, and I had most of my empire building commerce, I was barely breaking even. So that T166 save above is when I realised that my position was unlikely to recover - or at the very least I was not in the overwhelming position I *should* be in at this stage on this level. I certainly wasn't going to beat anyone to guilds, liberalism or astronomy. I didn't bother playing beyond that.

Spoiler T116 - Declared War :

Break even was approx 38% science slider

View attachment 748580



So some time between ☝️ and 👇 everything fell apart, but I was too focused on winning the war to notice. Plus, when you're whipping off mature cottages, you expect to take a financial hit. I've got all the autosaves from that game, so if there are specific markers that I should be looking for, I can track them down for you.

Spoiler T144 - First Enemy Falls :






Spoiler T166 Advisor Screens :

View attachment 748574


View attachment 748575

Napoleon has pikes, so my position compared to his is worse than it looks. It also means I won't feel comfortable attacking him until I've got maces or knights (maybe even crossbows in a pinch) but I'm not getting to any of those any time soon.



View attachment 748576
View attachment 748573
From what I can tell from the screenshots, you have 23 cities and are not dramatically behind in tech. The game seems won for all intents and purposes.
 
Hmmmm... I played three more turns to make some rather aggressive trades...

Spoiler T168 - New Foreign Advisor :


T168 - After Trades.png


So in the end, I gave up...
T166:
- MC to Saladin for CoL;
- Calendar to Sitting Bull for the two religious techs;
T167:
- MC to Sitting Bull for Monarchy and some gold;
T168:
- Alphabet, Currency and 180 gold to Sitting Bull for Feudalism;

Not trades I would normally have made, but they caught me up with everyone except the French. Oh, and I think there's supposed to be another AI that I haven't found yet.
 
From what I can tell from the screenshots, you have 23 cities and are not dramatically behind in tech. The game seems won for all intents and purposes.
Experience tells me that I will fall behind very quickly from this point. If there's some way to prevent that, I'd love to know it. How do I get my tech rate back to a reasonable level from here?

My initial thoughts are:
1. Put more citizens on high commerce tiles (is it too late to cottage more tiles?)
2. Build more wealth
3. Run Merchants/Scientists
4. Build more libraries/Markets (Apothecaries when I get to Guilds) in key cities
5. Build Courthouses as pmarc mentioned above.

What are my best bets? Is there anything I'm missing?

Happy to provide more info/screenshots if they would be helpful.
 
Experience tells me that I will fall behind very quickly from this point. If there's some way to prevent that, I'd love to know it. How do I get my tech rate back to a reasonable level from here?

My initial thoughts are:
1. Put more citizens on high commerce tiles (is it too late to cottage more tiles?)
2. Build more wealth
3. Run Merchants/Scientists
4. Build more libraries/Markets (Apothecaries when I get to Guilds) in key cities
5. Build Courthouses as pmarc mentioned above.

What are my best bets? Is there anything I'm missing?

Happy to provide more info/screenshots if they would be helpful.
Maybe you're obsessing too much over the slider and your exact position in the tech game at a given point in time. My experience tells me that this is won. The recovery will be slow, but essentially guaranteed. Make sure you have enough workers, grow grow grow, work the cottages, build the wealth and make your way to Communism.
 
And then there's the neighbours...

Spoiler Diplomacy :

Saladin won't plot at pleased, but Napoleon will. How do I encourage him not to? Iir, that involves begging for gold every 10 turns and hoping he doesn't sour on me.

I'm confident that Sitting Bull will take a swing at me at some point. It looks like he can get to me with galleys but I can't reach him until Astronomy. Fun.

No idea who or where the 6th AI is. I've got fairly good visibility of this continent, so I might have to tech Optics to find out. I'll deal with that when I get to it.
 
And then there's the neighbours...

Spoiler Diplomacy :

Saladin won't plot at pleased, but Napoleon will. How do I encourage him not to? Iir, that involves begging for gold every 10 turns and hoping he doesn't sour on me.

I'm confident that Sitting Bull will take a swing at me at some point. It looks like he can get to me with galleys but I can't reach him until Astronomy. Fun.

No idea who or where the 6th AI is. I've got fairly good visibility of this continent, so I might have to tech Optics to find out. I'll deal with that when I get to it.
I can't really see who is who on the scoreboard, but you're like 2,5 times the size of any of them. You're the runaway, you're a threat to them, not the other way around. No way Nappy can touch you. And Sitting Bull even less. A bunch of galleys vs. a 23-city empire?
 
Maybe you're obsessing too much over the slider and your exact position in the tech game at a given point in time. My experience tells me that this is won. The recovery will be slow, but essentially guaranteed. Make sure you have enough workers, grow grow grow, work the cottages, build the wealth and make your way to Communism.
Wait. What? Why Communism? That usually isn't even on my radar. I don't think I've ever used State Property in my life. My normal play is Liberalism to Rifling followed by Steel. By this time I've been forced to get Democracy. I follow that up with my two preferred corporation techs (Railroad for Mining Inc and Medicine for Sid's Sushi). They invariably fix any problems I have with any captured city. Then I steamroll any remaining civs with City Raider III Rifles (or Infantry if I have to). Those (upgraded from macemen) carve up cities like butter.
 
Wait. What? Why Communism? That usually isn't even on my radar. I don't think I've ever used State Property in my life. My normal play is Liberalism to Rifling followed by Steel. By this time I've been forced to get Democracy. I follow that up with my two preferred corporation techs (Railroad for Mining Inc and Medicine for Sid's Sushi). They invariably fix any problems I have with any captured city. Then I steamroll any remaining civs with City Raider III Rifles (or Infantry if I have to). Those (upgraded from macemen) carve up cities like butter.
Communism is standard play if you go late game. It will be a huge boon to your economy given you have 23 cities, and you get very powerful workshops (in combination with Guilds, Chemistry and Caste System). In this situation, I feel like that's a safer bet than continued expansion now. You could even try to Lib it.
 
Interesting. At my current position, distance maintenance is worth 80gpt. That sounds significant. Along with 2 :food: 3:hammers: grass workshops (4 :hammers: if I can take the happiness hit after everyone else goes emancipation). I'll look into it.

I'm still not convinced I'll be able to get there, but I'll try.
 
I purposely kept my mouth shut 🤫 and I’m glad to see you kept it going!

I’ve done two of these - for me i like to play in relatively significant chunks, explain what I did and why I did it, let others tell me what they would have done/would do, try to defend my choices (to myself as much as to them) and in the last one I did I literally played a section 2 different ways to see the difference.

I lost my first one of these threads but learned a ton. The 2nd one I benefited greatly by playing turns 50-100 twice and seeing the difference. That’s kind of what you have done and it’s a great way to learn. I would characterize myself as a “button masher” who has become much more thoughtful and knowledgeable about the game just from those 2 threads.

You are in fine shape - if you have currency you can build wealth if you need commerce. You have 23 cities? They can’t touch you, you just may not realize it yet.

Learning the power of Communism is game-changing. I played almost 20yrs ignoring it.
 
@Gunboat Diplomat

Some thoughts:

- After getting Code of Laws from Saladin on turn 166 it looks like you can get to Civil Service relatively quickly. Your capital already has an academy, but hasn't been cottaged as much as you'd expect at that point in the game. If you're building an academy you certainly expect a strong bureaucracy capital, so even during the war your priority should have been to finish cottaging around it. You can whip it less than other cities if the plan is for it to hold most of your economic power with Civil Service. That said, if you want to win the Liberalism race, it's usually a better plan to use the first great scientist for Philosophy, then the next two for Education.

- The tech trades you describe as desperate seem very reasonable to me. The AI will not give you "good deals" in the game, that's fine. In @Fippy's beginner help guide on this forum, she mentions to focus on what you're getting from the trade rather than what the AI is getting. Almost never worry about the trade being lopsided in their favor (it builds diplomacy anyway), only worry about immediate strategic concerns. I would definitely trade Metal Casting for anything useful unless I was trying to get the Colossus. If I plan to attack 2 AI with Construction, I would trade Construction to anyone else (I guess it helps to know that the AI is very reluctant to trade Construction with each other, unless they are Mansa).

- Communism is the strongest economic tech moving in the industrial era, but I wouldn't go for it if I was planning to finish the map with Rifling or Steel. On the way to Rifling, Banking and Mercantilism gives you a free specialist everywhere, that adds up with many cities and is worth losing international trade routes if you have close to as many cities as all your trading partners combined.

- In the big scheme of things, I think there are two main paths following a Construction attack and you need to pick one of them. Either you beeline Steel and Military Science on the bottom of the tree (with Engineering and trebuchets, Guilds and knights along the way), or you go for the top part towards Liberalism and Cuirassiers, with Rifling being a possible continuation for both (but not necessarily needed). In both paths you still want the classical techs like Iron Working, Currency, Code of Laws, Monarchy, Calendar, looking for trades when possible. But if you're going for the top line you don't bother with Metal Casting, and if you're going for the bottom line you don't get Civil Service. You need 2 great scientists for Chemistry for the bottom line and at least 3 great scientists (Philosophy, 2 for Education) for the top line.

I think having a more focused strategy for the next steps after Construction, rather than pursuing a variety of things (i.e., avoid Aesthetics if not going to win the Music artist, and avoid MC if going for Civil Service), would be the biggest improvement.

- Getting back to this game on turn 166, I would probably suggest a hybrid strategy from the current position. After trading for Code of Laws, continue to Civil Service and keep cottaging your capital (and not elsewhere) to get the most benefit from academy + bureaucracy. Whip courthouses in the faraway cities if you're not whipping away good tiles. Then beeline Engineering and Steel, planning to generate the 2 great scientists for Chemistry along the way. Maybe trebuchets + elephants + maces are good enough to take on France if you have much superior numbers.
 
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