[BTS] Shadow Game Stalin

[SquidInk]

So I am going to play a shadow game and post saves and updates every so often. Please feel free to comment and critique (or criticize).

Randomly was assigned Stalin. The map is Pangea, and Random Events are turned on. Hey, I actually like random events. No goody huts though. Monarch difficulty.

Attached is the start save and screenshot, and the state of the game in 2000 BC.

--

Spoiler Actions and decisions :

Decided to settle 1NE to get the plains hills and extra production.
First tech was Agriculture, and went worker first.
Explored with the scout starting in the North and counter-clockwise to find good sports to settle next.
Turn 9, met Monty, who seems to be South of me.
Next tech was Bronze Working.
After Worker popped out, built Warriors till pop 3.
Sent Worker to improve Corn 2S1W of capitol.
Turn 13, met Gilgamesh, who seems to be somewhere East of me.
Farm done, send Worker back to Floodplain to build more farms.
Turn 19, I see where Gilgamesh is.
Turn 23, Bronze Working done. I switch to Slavery right away.
Copper revealed East of me. This is where my next city will be.
Start researching the Wheel.
Turn 25, I see exactly where Monty is.
Turn 27: Lose my scout to a lion while fortified on a jungle+hill title. What can you do...
Turn 27. Pop 4, warrior is 1 turn to complete, whip and put overflow into settler.
Turn 31: Start researching Animal Husbandry. Planning on taking third city next to Sheep and since I'm industrious try for the Great Lighthouse.
Turn 33, whip a Settler as soon as I have the option.
Build Worker next (then Warrior)
Turn 38, found Saint Petersburg next to Pigs and Copper. Worker on his way to improve tiles.
Turn 40, lucky random event, Industrious villagers build me a pasture on Pigs! My Worker starts building a mine.
Turn 42: Building a Warrior in my capitol so I can erase malus of city being unprotected. I whip right before growing to avoid unhappiness. Immediately start building a settler.
Turn 49, Researching Fishing next. Having second thoughts about Lighthouse.
Turn 50 whip Settler.

Planning to expand and take as many coastal cities as reasonably possible. Pottery will be next tech after sailing and I'll cottage after the Great Lighthouse is built. If I get fail gold, I'll reassess I guess.

Spoiler What now? :

So please share your thoughts and let me know if I made glaring mistakes in the opener. I think I am fog busting pretty well, though I may need an axeman for my capitol when I get a chance.

What's the next step? Expand only, or expand and think of taking out one of my rivals? I know Monty's a psycho so he may be a problem down the line (he seems to be in the jungle so that should slow him down some).

 

[Swordnboard]

Spoiler Thoughts on T50 Save :

A few things I like quite a bit:

• Fogbusting: Your warriors are reasonably placed, you've done a good job scouting the general area for city sites
• Capital: moving to the plains hill seems very strong, you've focused on a few, quite good tiles (though some mines couldn't hurt, either).

...and a few decisions that strike me as strange and/or suboptimal:

• Tech Choice: You haven't made use of masonry at all, and probably won't for a while yet. Even AH could perhaps be avoided for a while with different city placements, yet pottery (critical since you have no commerce resources), mysticism, and fishing/sailing aren't done yet.
• City placement: Lots of worker turns spent roading to St Pete, and you still have no trade connection. I like the northern fish/floodplain spot better I think, and am not too concerned with getting copper just yet

• I whip right before growing to avoid unhappiness

  . Seems bad, especially right before building a settler since unhappy population don't count against you in that particular case.

Played to T50 as well for comparison. Only very minor spoilers if you've already played that far.

Spoiler Future Plans :

Lots of decent land, no need for war yet (maybe with macemen later). Focus on economy, cottage the capital, build libraries->work scientists for academy in capital. We have a bit of a happiness problem, either researching monarchy or chopping the pyramids for representation will work.

 

[sampsa]

Good comments by Swordnboard. IMO the most important thing in the early game is to get good cities up asap! The sooner they contribute the better, it really is that simple. Roads are not helping you to get that, working improved tiles and chopping are.

Unless the start is extremely poor, I'd aim to have at least 3 cities, maybe 4 by T50 (=2000BC) assuming you are not playing deity, when you need to worry about barbs a bit.

No shame at replaying it from the start, and no shame in continuing where you are. Do what feels natural. Personally I very much believe in my signature.

 

[Pedro78]

I'd aim to have at least 3 cities, maybe 4 by T50

Looking at the opening screenshot, I'd say at least 4, probably 5 cities by ~T50 is a good aim if the surrounding land is good
Except on very barb-heavy maps (hemispheres, highlands..), the barbs don't slow down your expansion -- putting Settler/Worker whip-OF in warriors usually works like a charm (on deity).

 

[Gumbolt]

I agree with others. May be worth replaying first 50 turns.

Spoiler Thoughts :

St Peters 7 tiles away is too far. Copper and pigs is not worth that risk. Especially with wondering barbs.
Roads early on are a bad use of workers unless you have no other use for them. Your only building roads as the city is so far away.
I would aim for a bureau capital here with cottages. Ideally cottage the flood plains. 1 farm is useful for growth.
Marker city 3 would of likely beem my second city. Food early on is king.
Fish corn also looks good.
Would a city 3e1S of Moscow be good for the corn and to share cottages with the capital. The helper city can work the cottages as your capital grows. The cottage tiles needs to be worked by the city for the cottages to develop.

If you really want the copper city on a relaod there is a risk the Sumerians will beat you to this. In any case still better to grab nearby land first. I can see why you went for the copper. You want to rush a neighbour with axes. Ultimately getting up 3-4 decent cities first will allow you to build an army quicker. Also connecting copper too early means you can't build warriors.

Why did you tech masonry? I can't see any stone or marble nearby?Agriculture was obvious. BW is never bad for slavery.
The order after these should of been fishing/AH. You want workboats and pastures for the sheep city.

Long term you will want wheel to reach pottery. Pottery allows cottages and granaries. If you plan to whip you will want granaries to grow back much quicker.

Eatly monarchy or calendar here would be useful for happiness. You have no easy happiness resources like gold/gems or fur nearby.

 

[Pedro78]

I would aim for a bureau capital here with cottages

I disagree with this statement for several reasons, the main being that in almost every IMM & below shadow game on the forums, OP gets advised to get a Bureau cap, not even taking other civics/moves in consideration. The result of this is that you'll find many people who say "I don't know how to win the game if I don't have a good cottage spot for a bureau cap". People tend to overfocus on this and it narrows down their vision of the game.
On a map with a start this rich, there is a billion available options, so while getting up a strong capital can be part of the long-term strategy, one first has to decide what short-term moves are possible, then mid-term etc. and then build a game-plan around that.
Not criticizing the advice you're giving, Gumbolt, which is very good, just saying that the advice "go for a bureau cap" @T50 can be confusing, even to some of the more advanced players out here.
(Oh and I also like disagreeing with people lol)

 

[sampsa]

Looking at the opening screenshot, I'd say at least 4, probably 5 cities by ~T50 is a good aim if the surrounding land is good

Ok, Pedro, I fell into your trap and played.

T47

Spoiler :

Chopped all but 1 forest on capital BFC, but haven't even started the settler for 5th city on T47. Well, I did "waste" 60 on boats. Not sure if claiming oasis+cow+rice 4th could have been better, but in that case 4th city would require worker turns.

Anyway I think you are correct in that it is possible to get 5 cities T50 if you prioritize it.

 

[Pedro78]

Lol, you should fall in my traps more often
Looked at your screenshot, a few things look a bit weird. I'll play it to T50 tomorrow then, but I'd say if it were deity you would want 4 cities & 3 workers by T50, 6 cities & 5 workers by T60 on this map. With Monarch tech&maintenance costs it might be worth it to settle a bit more aggressively. Also, plains cow + Oasis should be either city #2 or #3.

 

[sampsa]

Looked at your screenshot, a few things look a bit weird.

Looking forward to learn more about them. Haven't played for a while so there certainly are sub-optimal things.

I'll play it to T50 tomorrow then, but I'd say if it were deity you would want 4 cities & 3 workers by T50, 6 cities & 5 workers by T60 on this map. With Monarch tech&maintenance costs it might be worth it to settle a bit more aggressively.

Certainly, the lower the difficulty the more aggressive you can expand due to costs. Something to keep in mind indeed!

Also, plains cow + Oasis should be either city #2 or #3.

Agreed.

 

[Gumbolt]

Of course on higher levels over expansion can be a bad thing. 3-4 cities if you plan an HA rush can kill your science delaying HBR. Also there is a danger of informing monarch player they should have 4-5 cities by 2000bc. I rarely have this by 2000bc on immortal. It would require delaying 2nd/3rd workers.

 

[Anysense]

Also, plains cow + Oasis should be either city #2 or #3.

Why? Very weak city requiring a road. I see at least 8 better spots for settling. I don't see why you'd want to settle 5 cities by t50 here either. That would be fine with imperialistic, but without it you have to sacrifice a lot just to get one more city which would not be much use.

 

[sampsa]

Of course on higher levels over expansion can be a bad thing. 3-4 cities if you plan an HA rush can kill your science delaying HBR.

But "early attack"-strategies should not be confused with "peaceful expansion"-strategy. But yes, useful to clarify that we are talking about situations when we have so many strong city spots that we want to claim them as fast as possible.

Also there is a danger of informing monarch player they should have 4-5 cities by 2000bc. I rarely have this by 2000bc on immortal. It would require delaying 2nd/3rd workers.

Imitating Pedro, I disagree. The best way to learn to do something right is by doing it right. No reason to aim to do anything else but the optimal thing. Maybe you can still learn, too. Delay 2nd/3rd workers, if it's a good thing to do?

Why? Very weak city requiring a road.

A road, for what?

I see at least 8 better spots for settling. I don't see why you'd want to settle 5 cities by t50 here either. That would be fine with imperialistic, but without it you have to sacrifice a lot just to get one more city which would not be much use.

In the best Pedro-style, disagree with everything that you say.

 

[Anysense]

In the best Pedro-style, disagree with everything that you say.

Pedro is raving. I don't even see what he is going to do with 5 wokers on t60. Build farms over cottages (secret technique that makes AI so weak)? No kidding, I'd really like to know the judgement behind it all. Even in HOF games I rarely steal more 4 workers early, because they would only increase maintenance without doing anything useful.

 

[Gumbolt]

Just to disagree. Because I can. Good to get the basics right then tweak as you rise above levels.

Agree peaceful vs early attack strategies require different start. Same for some wonder based starts like Oracle to deep bulb.

Let's remember the OP is trying to improve their game not jump on Deity tomorrow.

 

[cseanny]

You guys are all crazy lol. I had 13 cities and one Vassal before 1ad and I founded my 3rd city AFTER 2000bc (and my 2nd and 3rd city were both Crap

Spoiler :

Worker, grow to size 3, 2nd worker, grow to size 5 while teching Agr, Bw, Whl, Pottery, Ah. Improved all the mines and cottage the 4 flood plains. Then 2 settlers at Happy cap. 1 worker pre-chopped the Capital while 2 workers went to road way way way WAY far away crap horse city with no food in 1st ring o_^. 2nd city was 1sw of rice to grab some forest. So at around 1960 I just have 3 cities.

Stole 1 worker from Monty and then HA rush Giggles grabbing 2 cities, one of which has pig/copper! (razed a jungle city) and losing only 1 HA. Then I grab 2 barb cities (w/ zero losses), one of which was my back door with fish/sheep. The other was Corn/Fish Swest of Capital. With nice forest in Giggles old Capital I made quick work of Monty (kept 3 cities auto raze his 4th) and even made the GLH in his Capital.

Traded HBR for Alpha, while heading through Currency and then traded for Monarchy also. At this point I had 10 cites and once Currency finished had around 150 beakers a turn. After Currency was MC followed by Fued which I used to Capitulate Hatty before 1ad (just HAs).

 

[sampsa]

Just to disagree. Because I can.

Good to get the basics right then tweak as you rise above levels.

Agreed. We are disagreeing mostly on what constitutes "basics" I think. I have also noticed we disagree on what "micro" is.

Let's remember the OP is trying to improve their game not jump on Deity tomorrow.

Indeed. I am arguing that it's good to learn the right things from the get-go.

I think things like "get good cities up asap", "work strong tiles" are good advice, while something like "don't over-extend" is way too vague and situational and might simply lead to confusion or learning the wrong thing. Unlearning is difficult.

 

[Pedro78]

@Gumbolt

Spoiler :

Of course on higher levels over expansion can be a bad thing. 3-4 cities if you plan an HA rush can kill your science delaying HBR

True in many cases, but I'm only talking about this particular map, not in general. Here the only reason why I'd expand to less than 7 cities would be finding horses and a good neighbour to HA-rush early (or get boxed in).

there is a danger of informing monarch player they should have 4-5 cities by 2000bc

I see what you mean. Maybe I should've written instead that "on this particular map, 4-5 cities by T50 should be rather close to optimum". On most maps you don't want to settle this fast, but here high commerce gives you an incentive to expand early.

I rarely have this by 2000bc on immortal. It would require delaying 2nd/3rd workers

Worker count very much depends on the land you have and on the tech path you chose. Here I think you can get both the workers & the Settlers.

wonder based starts like Oracle to deep bulb

That's a very dangerous thing to mention in front of a Monarch player

@Anysense

Spoiler :

Pedro is raving

Haha not really. It can actually be a healthy mechanic to (almost) systematically disagree with people, because then either you prove them wrong and they learn something, or you turn out to be wrong and you learn something.

Very weak city requiring a road

Oasis+plains cows is extremely strong early on. This is not a double-gold start where you have BW+Pottery by T35, and even then it would be a great spot. The road can wait. And I don't see the 8 spots you're talking about (might be because of Sampsa's awful no-res-bubbles screenie).

I don't even see what he is going to do with 5 wokers on t60

Plenty of stuff to do with workers here. Worker count may vary depending on the explored land, but I'd definitely have at least 4 of them by T60, probably 5. And I don't dislike overbuilding workers in most cases - much better than underbuilding them from my experience.

Build farms over cottages

Probably not. However I'd say that not building enough farms (and consqequencially, workers) is often what prevents a great game to be a superb one (nothing personnal, just a conclusion that I've come to, looking through both S&T and HoF saves)

Even in HOF games I rarely steal more 4 workers early, because they would only increase maintenance without doing anything useful.

The only reason why I'd stop stealing workers is if I'm afraid of all the negative diplo from repeated DoWs, or want an AI to develop a little before I take its cities. IMO no reason to worry about the -1gpt from an extra worker when you have double-gold.

I'm really enjoying the discussion. I'll play 50T tomorrow (or the day after, kinda busy) and try to explain the stuff that I do, both to prove my point and to actually bring something concrete to the OP instead of just babling around like I usually do.

 

[sampsa]

You guys are all crazy lol. I had 13 cities and one Vassal before 1ad and I founded my 3rd city AFTER 2000bc (and my 2nd and 3rd city were both Crap

Wp.

You misunderstood the thread though. It's not about abusing monarch AI, it's about OP learning how to improve.

 

[sampsa]

And I don't see the 8 spots you're talking about (might be because of Sampsa's awful no-res-bubbles screenie).

And I turned resource bubbles off just to take the screenie. I often find them annoying when zooming out a bit.

 

[Pedro78]

@cseanny
As this is Monarch/Pangaea, the map is likely winnable in the BCs, but that's besides the point. The idea is to play a good opening and try and teach OP some knowledge that he'll be able to re-use on the higher levels. Rolling over the map with HAs is fun, but at least before one can consistently beat Deity, he has to learn the game via identifying patterns and trying to replicate them in relevant situations. And the tech HBR -> kill the map pattern is pretty uncommon for random maps, even on Immortal.

Nonetheless I'm sure some screenies/saves would be interesting to look at -- knowing that something's possible and witnessing it are very different things, so it would likely give OP a lot to think about.

I often find them annoying when zooming out a bit.

Some will find annoying to look at a map they don't know and not see the resources

Let's remember the OP is trying to improve their game not jump on Deity tomorrow.

I am arguing that it's good to learn the right things from the get-go.

I tend to agree with Gumbolt here. This game is so deep that you can't learn to do the "right things" immediately, as you'll never be able to determine them on your own. You have to witness different strategies, replicate them, see their benefits and flaws depending on the situation and make your own conclusions. Not easy to "think outside the box" when you don't even know what's in the box. But I agree that someone who's learning should always keep in mind that replicating the exact same strategy on two different maps will necessarily lead to suboptimal results.

That being said, I don't have a master degree in teaching Civ4 (nor a master degree at all lol), so anyone feel free to disagree with me