shadows vs Khazad

[Master_Hugian]

I decided to play the Khazad a bit in multiplayer vs a few friends and while i was busy trying to obtain gems he started to produce shadows. Now, there are ways to counter them but the problem is the typically khazad has no chance against them.

Marksman - cannot be made
Floating Eye - octopus religion
Sand Lion - Can't have Fire II conjurers
Hero with see stealth - Fellowship religion

since khazad almost always go for runes of kilmorph - this leaves them almost defenceless vs shadows.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

That, combined with their lack of terraforming options (no way for them to get vitalize) makes them pretty darn weak in the late game. Then again, their palace does give a good war weariness modifier, but that only goes so far.

 

[Oldfrt]

Their money making skills make up for this weakness.

I have found if you can get the vault up high enough then you can rush buy without losing the vaults benefits which means you can simply flood your territory with units... making the shadows effectively usless.

Playing as Khazad, as someone mentioned in another post - if you can get past the middle game, then you are nearly unstoppable. (or should be with your money).

 

[Silverkiss]

They can Vitalize if they get a High Priest of Leaves.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

If it makes you feel better, the best target for shadows are high level mages/summoners.

 

[velk]

If it makes you feel better, the best target for shadows are high level mages/summoners.

Plus, Khazad are usually tromping all over the opposition with regards to early game production, so if you make the core of the subtle, shadows really have very little scope for being anything other than a nuisance. Attacking hammerfists is far from a risk free proposition even when they are wandering around in the open - how many of them do you need to kill in what kind of timeframe to have any strategic value out of the shadow ?

 

[vorshlumpf]

I always lost my adepts to shadows when playing as the Khazad. Very annoying, especially when they've increased in level quite a bit (at least mages and archmages will have a better chance at defending themselves).

Does the worker defense still work? I.e., have a worker in every city/stack, and that's the one the shadow will go for? It's lame, but I like shadows even less than lowering myself to such a tactic (and drawing myself out of the game).

- Niilo

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

I've been waiting for this issue to arise on the boards for ever since I stumbled upon FfH and starrted playing. You can expect a lot of player dissatisfaction when one side has stealth capability and another side does not. At least the Khazad were given the ability to build Shadows themselves. It used to be they couldn't even do that.

But that still leaves them without a counter to stealth units, unless they adopt the Veil, or play some funky Flech Golum schemes.

The Khazad are really typecast in FfH. They are prohibited from building - what? - over 50% of the tier 4 units? Some of these units are unavailable because there is no art for them. But a lot of units are unavailable by design. I have no idea why the dwarves were hit so hard with the You Can't Do That Stick. Both Dwarven civs were smacked around with the YCDT Stick.

PS: Yes the "Worker defense" works, as does the Hawk defense, and so forth.

 

[Sto]

Does someone knows if there is a way to kill a shadow ?

Playing with conquest , require complete kills . i've been forced to open worldbuilder to erase them .

 

[Oldfrt]

I dont think it causes to much of an issue - it just requires an alternative style of game play, by either:

a. having only strong units sitting in your cities,

or

b. providing "cannon fodder" for the shadows.

Normally I mix both methods. The AI isnt very good with them - shadows are highly efficient simply as spies and letting you know where units are so your main army can hit the weak spots. If they attack, then they are giving away where they are.

It may be that there needs to be some sort of "lock-down" allowed, whereby their movement in your territory is reduced together with some sort of increased chance of your own units to spot them (doesnt mean you can attack them, but at least if you know where they are you can block them and effectively neutralise them that way).

I find these units to be the most interesting in the game (either using them, or having them used against me).

-- that gives me an idea..... why not have a "lock down" spell/ability. It could be targetted on a tile (with maybe an area effect if possible? 3x3 tiles?). Would reduce all movement of stealth units in the effected area to 0 (they would get a saving throw of course).

 

[Chandrasekhar]

A "lock down" doesn't sound like a very fantastic (hey, better than fantasy-y) feature, but maybe a "dimensional achor"...

 

[Oldfrt]

I was thinking in terms of your troops (taking it as a ability), going into search pattern for a known enemy... (images of the roman troops repeatedly knocking/searching the same room in the Life of Brian....).. so basically could be imagined as doors getting kicked in, wagons getting searched, plebs getting hassled... all the good old things you would imagine strong-arm tactics would induce to search for a spy/enemy of the people....

... seems to fit within the dwarven image as well... I mean... you can almost hear those dwarven feet marching towards the door to do a detailed "search" of the target area.....

 

[Maniac]

Perhaps Shadows should be unable to attack Khazad cities? After all, I can't imagine a non-Dwarf succesfully infiltrating in a underground Dwarven city.

 

[Oldfrt]

Perhaps Shadows should be unable to attack Khazad cities? After all, I can't imagine a non-Dwarf succesfully infiltrating in a underground Dwarven city.

humm..... a bizarre image of a 6'6" Elf, dressed up in chain mail, with a double headed axe & a fake beard going "Honest.... really, I am a dwarf!".....


Actually, that is a good idea, or at least to give a modifier attacking different races..

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Maybe shadows shouldn't be able to attack cities in the first place. Or at least their marksman promotion could be disabled when they do.

Edit: or maybe they could be able to go inside cities even when they're at war with the owners? It could be useful to have an eye inside your foes' cities even in times of war (and they'd be able to pick off units that leave those cities...).

 

[Silverkiss]

Interesting idea, Chand, interesting idea....

 

[vorshlumpf]

I'm not a fan of hidden units with attack capabilities at all. However, in my time with FFH2, I've thought of one system that would make it more enjoyable than the Either You've Got a Counter-Spy or You Don't system.

First, units such as Shadows do not have the ability to attack. They do have an assassinate ability, much like a cast spell. They can use the ability on any other unit on the same tile (as a targetable spell). There are two measures of success. Their ability to damage and/or kill their target (which may involve damage and/or death for themself) and their ability to stay hidden after the assassination attempt. The latter concern could depend on the number of enemy units in the same tile, the strength of enemy units in the same tile, the type of enemy units in the same tile (e.g., a marksman unit could have a high probability of discovering a shadow as opposed to its current ability), and perhaps other considerations (e.g., buildings, spells,...). If the shadow fails to stay hidden, he is booted from the tile in a random direction and stays visible until his next turn.

There would also be a way to try to hunt down a shadow when they are hidden. I'm not sure of how this could be implemented without clogging the UI or automatically giving away the presence of a shadow but, perhaps, units in any friendly city would get the ability to search the city for hidden enemies, much like the lock-down mentioned already in this thread. Each attempted spy-hunt would cost the unit's movement and have a chance to succeed based on the "hunter's" current strength and the shadow's current strength, perhaps with a bonus for any previous hunting attempts within the same city that were performed this turn. Certain units, such as marksmen, would get a bonus to find hidden enemies and would also have this 'hunting' ability enabled outside of city limits.

Anyway, that's what crosses my mind whenever I have to deal with Shadows.

- Niilo

 

[Chandrasekhar]

That would be ideal, I think. Might be tough to implement. Let me add that it seems logical that doing a lockdown should probably cause the city to go into "revolt;" that is, it should stop collecting yields from tiles (laborers can't go to and from the city), stop getting benefits from trade routes (obvious), and potentially cause unhappiness for a few turns. We don't want this thing to be spammed, else stealth units will quickly become useless.

 

[Maniac]

Edit: or maybe they could be able to go inside cities even when they're at war with the owners? It could be useful to have an eye inside your foes' cities even in times of war (and they'd be able to pick off units that leave those cities...).

I think this would only be possible if they'd have strength 0.
Hmm, I wonder if they could enter cities when including an event that reduces unit strength by 9 when attacking a city.

Problem with an assassinate spell would probably be the AI can't use it.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

It uses the attach Great Commander "spell," doesn't it?