Shaka is my neighbour. Bury the hatchet or go for the kill?

[b7fanatix]

I spawned on a continent with Shaka and Japan. Shaka wiped out the Japanese, then spent the next few thousand years trying to do the same to me, with little success.

I never expanded beyond 3 (admittedly tall) cities, perhaps getting too distracted with internal development, defence and happiness worries. I'm leading in Science but Shaka is second by dint of the sheer number of cities he holds. I was first to get an ideology, went Freedom, he chose Autocracy, but ended up having a revolution and going Order due to influence from the Celts. His switchover sent me into negative happiness too, so i was forced to go order as well.

So, we now share an ideology. Does this mean we're finally about to become buddies? Do i even want DoF with him if he goes around making himself unpopular with every other Civ on the planet? Or shall i finally go on the attack?

I've been quite content to just destroy his units till now. He's covered the continent in crappy cities and i don't much fancy capturing them TBH, they look like misery factories. But if he finally gets round to improving the tiles and putting up some buildings he could be a science powerhouse and that would be bad for me. In fact , it could be bad for me if he discovers nukes?

He's not that unpopular right now, as he wiped out Japan and a city state before the other civs met us. However, i switched research to a military focus and currently enjoy the greatest technological edge i am ever likely to have over his army.

He has Cannons, Impis and Muskets, I have Machine Gunners with Range, Logistics and March Promotions, Infantry, Artillery, and WWI aircraft.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

If he is denounced by anybody you are close to don't make a DoF, this will hurt your relations with the other nations.

And this is Shaka, just prepare for a war, it might not be a bad idea to attack him if you can afford it happiness wise.

 

[kaspergm]

It seems if you've already chosen ideology, you must be pretty far along in the game, so is it likely that he will ever manage to become a danger to you if you've held him off that far? Doesn't seem likely to me. AI military civs suck at developing infrastructure, so I wouldn't worry about him becoming a science powerhouse. If you stay on defensive, make sure to build a good supply of fighters and equip them with Interception promotions, I have had experience with Shaka coming at me with large amounts of WW1 Bombers which can become a problem if you don't have able air defences, but other than that, I would just hold back. Like you say, it doesn't seem worth it to DoF him. What victory condition are you aiming for?

 

[GoStu]

You have Flight, and he still has impi on the board? He'll never really be a danger to you. Attack if it amuses you, otherwise enjoy air superiority. Keep some fighters and bombers current, and air strike anything that crosses your borders into a smoking crater.

 

[revelation216]

Spam bombers, go for the capital, hold the line.

If you can't get a city/aircraft carrier within range wait til Airports and put a settler as near as possible to his capital and rush buy an Airport.

Screen would be good to see how well he's shielded Ulundi.

 

[phillipwyllie]

You have the upper hand in tech so I would capture his core cities. A DOF would be useless as he is probably considered a major warmonger. Cities only start to pay for themselves scientifically when they have universities and the specialists are being worked. Puppets prioritize gold and not science. Unless Shaka Annexes his puppets he wont be much of a threat, especially if his core cities aren't his.

 

[Don Matt]

Shame him: Build enough military to easily fend off an attack and mount a nasty counter-offensive. Then, when he attack, decimate his army and start marching toward Ulundi.... Then make peace, and request some of his cities. Free cities for you, no warmongering penalty. Then, be prepared to do it again about 10 turns after your peace treaty expires.

 

[Ryoga]

It is always easier to defend than to attack. If he's your neighbor it shouldn't be too hard to make him attack you. In a pinch you can even use a citadel near your city to destroy his hordes of footmen even more easily.

focus more on long range units like artillery bombers and aircrafts. Steadily and calmly destroy the zulu's units as they relentlessly swarm the targeted city. It's easy to get a sense of defeat when you see yourself so greatly overnumbered, but keep your cool. The AI is very bad and the game system doesn't favor large armies at all.
Learn how to exploit the movement limits, sometimes it is better to keep those melee units with red hp near your city alive. They don't pose a big threat and they block the path of more pristine units behind them who can't do anything but waiting to be sniped by your ranged attacks.

When they stop swarming, it means that only very few are remaining, that's your cue to advance, but if you have a good army (and you should at this point) Shaka might offer you a city or more for peace, and there you get your conquests without even moving away from your borders.

 

[Sherlock]

I just DOW'd Shaka by accident. You know, you click too fast when moving a unit near his borders.

I thought, 'what the hell, it was probably just a matter of time anyway'.

 

[Acken]

Kill him before he gets Impi or at artilleries.

 

[b7fanatix]

OK, the Celts don't like Shaka either and will declare war on him for 7GPT and a bit of ALU. Soon, for less, since he attacks a turn or two after the save i posted, his army's going to shrink a bit.

North of the mountains, are two junk size 5 cities with no lux. Will i get warmonger penalty for razing them? After that i can reach the size 12 Nongoma, which has one unique lux (citrus) and is on a river. It would make a fairly defensible line too.


Or I can get ally with Budapest and simply go straight for his capitol. Capture it, build a farm for one turn over the manufactory, pillage everything, sell every building, then sell the capitol back to him. I imagine he'd be willing to give me a fair bit of gold for that, or maybe i can swap for some of those northern cities (ie. Nongoma).

I'm not sure what the Celts can do, being on a separate continent. But if they did make a landing, they'd sure as hell get a couple of his cities with my support.

I don't think i can go any later into the game with Shaka as the #2 civ. Need to weaken him a bit without turning myself into a pariah.

 

[phillipwyllie]

You'll receive warmonger score for every city you capture even Boudicca, although with her it will be halved. Your plan to get free cities is a good one, kill all his units and then march and pillage. Shaka will prolly want to give some of his crappy cities which you can sell/gift to Boudicca(asumming you have open borders). Try to get more allies even when you are at peace(for 10 turns) with Shaka as this will lower your warmonger score when you finally take Ulundi.

 

[neilkaz]

Shame him: Build enough military to easily fend off an attack and mount a nasty counter-offensive. Then, when he attack, decimate his army and start marching toward Ulundi.... Then make peace, and request some of his cities. Free cities for you, no warmongering penalty. Then, be prepared to do it again about 10 turns after your peace treaty expires.

I like this idea from here.

If you do decide to rid the world of him, can you attack him and take out his self-founded cities first and then take his Japanese puppets and the CS puppet and liberate them to reduce Warmonger penalties?

I know if I started on an Island with Shaka and just one other civ, the focus of my early game would revolve around the fact that Shaka has to go and go quickly before civs from other continent(s) come to meet us.

 

[b7fanatix]

Well, what i ended up doing was reducing his army a bit, bringing the Celts into the war, and went north of the mountain range to capture Hlobane. Razed that city, captured Ndondakusuka, threatended Nongoma till it turned red. He gave me Nongoma in the peace deal, and didn't threaten me again for the rest of the game.

What he did do, was capture a city state, then wipe out another Civ (Atilla) then start settling all around Catherine. So, he was not too popular and had little peace the rest of the game. I ended up winning scientific victory in 2014, my first on Epic pace! There were only 5 civs left by that point.

 

[Vitruvius]

Either kill Shaka early or constantly bribe him to war other people. Going to war with Shaka will slow you down so much that you won't be able to win the game even if you eventually beat him.

 

[DarkestOnion]

I looked at your save and my recommendation is to arrange for Shaka to fight any AI whose score is higher than yours. Build a large Air Force/Tanks/Nukes since you are playing on Epic Speed. More or less drop WW3 on his head while he is only ready for WW2-ish if you are going for a Domination Victory. Of course you could get a Diplomatic or Science Victory much easier in this situation since you are playing on King.

 

[chimpanzebra]

I just finished an Immortal India continents game with Shaka being my closest neighbor for the entire game. I kept him in a bare minimum of 2 wars at any given time. I got him to fight my culture victory competitors for single luxuries. I probably bribed him into about 15 wars throughout the game. He never got around to trying to kill me before i wont the culture victory. Only issue with this was that he made the whole world angry at him and got embargoed. So he was a little extra resistant to my culture.

 

[DarkestOnion]

I got the sudden crazy idea of fixing your situation and I have provided a modified save for you. I would proceed towards a Science Victory with my setup as you are the Tech Leader. You do not need to grow your cities further, and you need to turn Non-River Farms into Trading Posts since your cities are as big as you are going to need them to get. Turtle up and you have got this one imho.

View attachment NewPocatello_0501 AD-1911.Civ5Save

 

[kaspergm]

Well looking at the screenshot, if that was my game, I would hold the defensive line in north, ally Budapest, and then march an army down south to conquer Ulundi. Probably make a peace deal with him at this point, or form a defensive line in south also to cripple his army while not raking up further warmonger penalty. Of course this depends on whether he has cities south of Ulundi which we can't see because you deleted the mini-map from the screenshot (?), but taking his capital should generally leave him severely cripple for the rest of the game, and you could probably get a decent city out of it yourself, with those Salt resources and the manufactory.

 

[DarkestOnion]

Well looking at the screenshot, if that was my game, I would hold the defensive line in north, ally Budapest, and then march an army down south to conquer Ulundi. Probably make a peace deal with him at this point, or form a defensive line in south also to cripple his army while not raking up further warmonger penalty. Of course this depends on whether he has cities south of Ulundi which we can't see because you deleted the mini-map from the screenshot (?), but taking his capital should generally leave him severely cripple for the rest of the game, and you could probably get a decent city out of it yourself, with those Salt resources and the manufactory.

Sage advice kaspergm.

I played out the save and noticed that Shaka has conquered all of his potential trade partners except me. I decided that (like real life) Economic Sanctions were the best way to go. I diverted all of my trade to other AI's and the four City States in trading range. I then purchased Alliances with every City State. After that I began to pay Shaka to embark on foolish wars against everyone, which made the world hate him so that when I began to take his cities the world cheered me on for taking out a Warmonger.

I built Tourism and Culture while fending off a half dozen desperate DoW's from the Zulu. As a a final stroke to cripple the Zulu I enacted a Full Embargo dropping his gpt permanently to -300 gpt with an empty treasury.

It is important to note that I downsized my army to 6 Air Units, 4 Siege Units, and 4 Melee Units. Unit gifts from my City State allies provided me with Prachina and eventually started gifting me XCom Squads too! The point I am trying to make is that you need to strike a balance between your Armed Forces and your Economy imho.

Since I built a strong Tourism (+350/turn w/Internet) and got Happiness between 20-50 Shakas cities began to flip to me. I also noticed that the Zulu had no Religion, so I gave them mine (with Tithe) to make them more reluctant to come at the guys that worship the same Guy in the Sky.

I finished with a Science Victory by purchasing the final piece of the Spaceship with 4000gp around 2012. Admittedly, I could have crushed the Zulu (but I would have faced a lot of warmonger hate which would have made Luxuries Sells/Trades harder.)