1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Shall we attempt to build the Pyramids?

Discussion in 'Team CivFanatics' started by cav scout, Nov 25, 2012.

?

Should we attempt to build the Pyramids?

Poll closed Nov 27, 2012.
  1. Yes

    30.0%
  2. No

    70.0%
  1. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2008
    Messages:
    2,608
    We are at a crossroads and need to decide a few things as a team. One of these decisions is whether or not we should go for the Pyramids.

    Please cast a yes or no vote after reviewing the relevant for and against arguments. This thread is open for relevant discussion and debate of the issue.

    This poll will be open for 48 hours and your vote will be viewable by other team members.
     
  2. 1889

    1889 Mayor of H-Marker Lake

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2003
    Messages:
    3,904
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Devil's Punchbowl
    I say no. i'd love to have Pyramids but am not sure that we would win a race to build them. Unlike other civs we have yet to settle stone let alone hook it up. Rather than start a risky gambit right now lets concentrate on expansion and defense. Our northern neighbors are at war which may provide us with opportunity if we are prepared. In addition our neighbors to the East and West are powerful and potentially dangerous.

    Their are many good city locations that we can settle in the midst of this confusion which will serve us much better than Pyramids.
     
  3. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2002
    Messages:
    6,437
    Location:
    Czech Rep.
    very reserved vote for yes. Ninja knows perfectly my situation... if we attempt it in timeframe of max 5 turns with abusing stone, math chops and some OF, then yes.
    If there is a high risk of not getting them, then just no.
     
  4. talonschild

    talonschild Drive-By NESer

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,953
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC, Canada
    I suppose my position is similar to vranasm's, but I believe it's already too late to risk it.
     
  5. classical_hero

    classical_hero In whom I trust

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2003
    Messages:
    33,262
    Location:
    Perth,Western Australia
    I just don't think we need it right now, unless we are planning to go to a SE and them we will need it. I think the vote for pyramids will be settled by the type of economy we are trying to go for right now. If we are willing to go for a SE economy, then we should go straight ahead and plan for the pyramids.
     
  6. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2007
    Messages:
    5,663
    Location:
    Plovdiv, BG
    From what I see, it is hard to get enough "YES" votes for the Pyramids at this time in the remaining less than 24 hours, so we most probably will skip them. My hands and conscience are clear of this and I am somewhat glad the team got the burden off my shoulders (you know - if the team had vested its trust in me, I still would had to build them before anyone else). But I will come here and tell you all "I have told you!!!" if no one is still built The Mighty Pyramids by turn 88. Of course, you all who voted "NO" could tell me "We have told you" if the opposite happens :D
     
  7. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2002
    Messages:
    6,437
    Location:
    Czech Rep.
    ^^ luckily I voted reserved yes, so I am winner in both situations ;-)
     
  8. talonschild

    talonschild Drive-By NESer

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,953
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC, Canada
    I suppose next you'll be taking this to the Beer Hall... ;)
     
  9. Maga_R

    Maga_R Has quit civ

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2012
    Messages:
    826
    Oh, I missed the deadline trying to get up-to-date with info on our situation. Why most think we should not try Mids if we may miss them? I with it more as win-win situation. Mids are obviously awesome and failgold should be also great, with all the bonuses. Is it because stone city would have to be settled solely for purpose of building Mids?
     
  10. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2007
    Messages:
    5,663
    Location:
    Plovdiv, BG
    Yeah! Exactly!

    I'm glad you see the things I see them, but alas, we are minority in this :(
     
  11. Maga_R

    Maga_R Has quit civ

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2012
    Messages:
    826
    I am trying to give you my moral support here, 2metra ;-) - perhaps it is not too late? I am still not up to date with how the things are. I see the poll is closed - but perhaps we can revisit the matter later? You said somewhere you bet the Mids will not be built by 88 - so there is still time. And I am OK with us both getting the Mids and failgold - as I said in another thread, some would argue failgold may be actually better. From this point of view, trying late is not a problem - unless trying for a Mids would be a sole reason to settle stone city, in an otherwise undesirable location. But stone should be useful anyway, so it probably is not a big issue.
     
  12. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2002
    Messages:
    6,437
    Location:
    Czech Rep.
    failgold is good only if you have spare production. there can be argument that we are in such a situation because too quick rex will kill our economy, but we can hold back chopping trees too, since that quick production comes from our deforesting (at least in my tries)

    failgold with stone would be better then building wealth, but we will pay price with mediocre city just for getting the stone compared to other heavy flood plain/high food cities which can be setup much quicker
    or some helper city for capital to work cottage tiles all the time.

    I consider actively hunting failgold at this point as very bad for us. If we consider such high probably of failing Mids to argue that failgold would be good anyway, then we really shouldn't attempt the Mids.

    If we go Mids we go Mids because we go Mids and we will get them, not because "sigh...at least we got some failgold"...

    we have to be pretty clear on this. It is very important point for me.

    We do Mids because we see high probability of success, not because if we fail we get at least some gold.
     
  13. Maga_R

    Maga_R Has quit civ

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2012
    Messages:
    826
    I am not understanding well the second part of the paragraph but one of the point I was trying to make is that we are probably loosing only virtual 2 settlers (or whatever is exact number) - that is that it would not be prudent to settle two new cities - especially on emperor - at this point.

    Of course you are right that the tree chops could be used potentially for something else later - there is always what economists call "opportunity cost", whenever you decide to follow option A you should factor in lost opportunities of option B.

    Unfortunately I did not have time to do test games in our situation - so I guess I loose our argument by default. I am just rather surprised your experiments were showing pursuing Mids is such a bad option. Mids not only open all Representation - and other very expensive tech benefits to us, give us precious Great Engineer points, but also with Mansa's SPI treat allow for a lot of great micro between civics without any anarchy.

    So basically you say potential stone city would be that bad that it is not worth it? Since you did tests, I cannot challenge that. The only additional advantage we are getting with the stone city is access to a strategic resource - that can be also used to build The Great Wall or to be traded, perhaps on very good condition, to a team that is wonder-racing. I remember a discussion early on, if that stone resources is worth a war with RB, so we may get a good price ;-) But of course estimating how much that would be worth is very difficult. With cottage city it is more "what you get is what you see", I guess.

    My argument that failgold also looks good was not related my perception of high chances of not getting Mids, it simply an outcome that can always happen, so worth considering. We both agree it is much better than building wealth. Another advantage is that with failgold you can get substantial sum quickly, which can allow to gain strategic advantage. Although committing to suboptimal city is definitely a substantial cost long term

    I think you actually making even a more convincing case that if we want a stone wonder (Great Wall or Mids) we should attempt to achieve it without a stone city. It echoes what Sommers said, I think, when "war over stone" was considered.



    I see majority of testers conclude stone city is not worth it if we are not getting Mids. These data is very interesting - and thank to you and others for doing the simulations! The problem is it is still very difficult to estimate our chances of getting Mids.
    How can we tell what are our chances? I saw some people looked at MP history, other asked experience players. I offered I could read production screens of opponents cities, although we prolly do not have many available. Yossarian mentioned they are available somewhere here, although I do not see them in the turn log.

    I understand you think currently our chances of getting Mids are low - would you risk a guess what turn Mids will be build in this game? I had no idea, so that is why I treated failgold as equally probable/important outcome.

    Thanks again for sharing very interesting test results
     
  14. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2002
    Messages:
    6,437
    Location:
    Czech Rep.
    actually going Mids without stone is even worse since paying full price in hammers is bad.

    as for our chances...I didn't log into the game online and dunno what we see, but from what ninja said (no Ind leader - obvious and most probably no team having stone) I would say we actually have pretty decent chance on getting them

    since I doubt anyone sane would go Mids without stone.

    That's why I voted 'reserved yes' to build them. the micro should be then optimized so we hunt the Mids in less then 5 turns so we have enough time to abandon the attempt without big investment

    As for the stone city...yep it's mediocre... oasis, dry rice, couple of wine (which we could not improve anyway unless farm the riverside one). It really is only for stone.

    You have to compare with other locations... pigs+overlap on cottages 3 tiles west from capital, wet corn+at least 5 flood plain tiles east of teraswin, horses+plains cow+~5 flood plain tiles north east of capital (north from Lana)

    the stone city directly competes with these 3 spots...all of them having better food from get go, better commerce and arguably better hammers. (I especially like the spot south from Lana with wet corn, couple of good hills and a lot of flood plains + some trees to speed granary etc)

    connecting horses could be seen as another vital task for team.

    with all of this the stone city competes and inherently Mids.

    and last point... building Mids usually means (even in SP) to any neighbor big arrow with "shoot me please now asap" message... actually my first ever Emperor win was done with rushing Louis who built the mids for me...nice from him ;-)

    those 200 hammers directly impact your production which neighbor didn't invest... there is old saying about the "10 axes wonder" instead of Mids...

    and if we would build the Mids without stone as you suggest...it would be like 16 axes...
     
  15. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2007
    Messages:
    5,663
    Location:
    Plovdiv, BG
    "Spare" is rarely applicable to a production, growth or money in Civ. Spare can be a doubling resource, so you can give away the spare one to a friend or sell it, thus making profit from something you dont really use. This cant be the case with well run empire in civ. There is no such thing as "spare" production. It is all about gain. Short-term, mid-term and long term. Let me just ask you (and generally all those who think failgold with multipliers is bad thing). If you had a magic button (like the DRAFT button) where when you press it, it takes away 1 pop and gives you 67 gold or another button, which takes one chopped forest and turns it in to those same 67 gold coins, would you use any of those buttons or not?

    In the case of the 1 pop button what it takes and what it gives? It takes away one citizen, who will otherwise work 1 tile or can be assigned as 1 specialist. Which tile this pop can work? Lets say very good case scenario - he is working a FIN riverside hamlet for 5 commerce. Generally, it takes 5 turns to regrow 1 pop (it can be as little as 3 or even 2 turns with smaller city size and good food as in Terasvin where we want to build the Pyramids.) But lets pretend it takes an average of 5 turns. What this citizen would have contributed to our empire during those 5 turns? 5x5=25 commerce, which without markets or other coins multiplying buildings can be turned in to 25 gold coins to support our 100% science slider or to pay for our heavy overexpansion. 25 gold vs 67 gold contributed to our empire. How is 168% gain bad? Anyone?
     
  16. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2007
    Messages:
    5,663
    Location:
    Plovdiv, BG
    Yes, I chop 3 forest too, but I chop them in the last possible turn, so we have a chance for only 1 turn to lose The Pyramids and those chops (if we consider turning 1 hammer in to 2.25 gold coins lost)
     
  17. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2007
    Messages:
    5,663
    Location:
    Plovdiv, BG
    It is not that mediocre of a city. It works rice, stone quarry and riverside cottage at size 3 to well pay for itself. Yes, settling lush river valeys will be better if we compare city vs city, but we are not arguing this. We must put The Pyramids in the equation.
     
  18. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2007
    Messages:
    5,663
    Location:
    Plovdiv, BG
    I can argue this is absolutely not the case. In my test game I had like 10 bronze units and potential to double this count in just few turns, so no, I dont think anyone can rush us at this point (turn 100 where our NAPs expire IF we dont renegotiate them, which we most probably will do) with success.
     
  19. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2007
    Messages:
    5,663
    Location:
    Plovdiv, BG
    This is not the case with sane MP players. I dont remember being rushed successfully in any of the pitbosses I played. Hmm.. after some more thinking, I dont remember being rushed early at all :D I guess being a ninja helps a lot :satan: Actually, almost every game it is me one who attacks people. I was once attacked by Sommers, but that did not ended well for him. Hahah, Kids, this is how I met your Captain :D LOL, couldnt resist the HIMYM reference:) (Further remembering in that particular game it did not ended well for me either, because despite I have killed him, this costed me a lot and at the end I was betrayed by an ally and killed with tanks/marines vs my cannons/rifles.)

    Bottom line is no one of those teams will be like stupid AIs and no one of those teams around will consider anyone else as stupid AI. Those who still do so will get their punishment I guess.

    I dont see anyone suggesting building Pyramids without stone lately. It was Sommers suggestion that it may be worth to build TGW even without stone for the strategic purpose of having a Great Spy that early to roll in to strategic advantage with the "snowball effect" later.
     
  20. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2007
    Messages:
    5,663
    Location:
    Plovdiv, BG
    Also, I dont have much to comment on Maga's post, as I concur with most of what she said, but instead I want to congratulate her for having good eye and innovative and adaptive thinking and sober evaluative skills (not bad at all, even if she was not a girl LOL, sorry Maga, you know you will have some sexist jokes from time to time being the only girl around. Take them as compliment for treating you as one of us the guys and not as some primadonna )

    Read careful and take notes, guys.
     

Share This Page