Shall we attempt to build the Pyramids?

[2metraninja]

To all talks "we should have planned this earlier" and "we need general strategy" I will say that it is not a good plan that cant be altered. Simply deciding "we will go for that wonder and we are selecting leader and nation to fit it" is not a good plan. What if you lose the wonder?
Far better in my opinion is to have stable leader/nation choice and then see how the game develops and take decisions as the situation requires. We are (or at least I am) talking Pyramids from turn 65-68. And I was planning to get them by turn 88. Thats 20 turns of initial planning. 1/4 of the game so far? Or you mean we should not try for things which we did not talked and agreed before actually the game starts? But we never agreed on a single wonder before the game starts. Do this means we will just skip all wonders in this game?

 

[2metraninja]

And Bowsling, in the game you describe you actually got the Parthenon + TGLib, yes? Of course those 2 wonders combo is killer for a PHI leader, but not bad for a normal leader too. What you would had otherwise instead of them? 10 axes? 20 axes? Would they be able to stop my number one in power army? No. Maybe without those wonders you possessed, you would be far less of desired target for me, but you would have been the logical target for my expansion anyway. Filon I need as a shield to keep the Inca away from the main scene, so I would had not attacked him. There is you and Michik. Both in reach. Actually having TGLib helped you get out that GS in time to negotiate the peace and the NAP But that is irrelated to our current situation. Having The Pyramids and being SPI is far better synergy and logical combo than being not PHI and having TGlib + Parthenon.

 

[Caledorn]

I have to voice my strong support to what 2metraninja is saying here. We need our strategy to be adapting at all times to the situation of the game, as using one main plan for our strategy (especially this early in the game) can be extremely dangerous and even demoralizing for the team if we lose our goals in such a strategy.

My doubts in regards to the Pyramids are not founded on this big strategy picture at all, as I would have been strongly in favor of that plan if we had stone easily available without any possible long term damage to our economy. And I commend you, 2metraninja, for coming up with the plan and the suggestion of building them

 

[2metraninja]

My doubts in regards to the Pyramids are not founded on this big strategy picture at all, as I would have been strongly in favor of that plan if we had stone easily available without any possible long term damage to our economy.

LOL, thanks for the support and the kind words, but the scenario you describe if would have been feasible to us, what would have stopped other teams to have that favorable situation and prevent them from grabbing that great opportunity themselves? If it is easy and safe strategy, why someone would leave it only especially to us?

I asked once what are normal dates for Pyramids to be built. Yossa gave 2 examples (both with way closer stone and executed by one of the best in the world and known for his dedicated addiction to Pyramids player. aka Midskotti, instead of Mackotti, go figure...)

Now I ask for the normal Oracle and SH completion dates and we can compare this to the current game, where this will give us good feeling is this game moving faster, slower or just as any other typical MP pitboss with strong players in it regarding the World Wonders.

 

[Maga_R]

As using one main plan for our strategy (especially this early in the game) can be extremely dangerous and even demoralizing for the team if we lose our goals in such a strategy.:

On the other hand, lack of strategy also begins to be demoralizing..

I think Cal you talk about strategy in a sense of rigid schedule of goal to be achieved for specific turns. I was thinking more in terms what our priorities are. For example, with wonders, we could have a priority list early on.

I am all for flexibility. The problem is that being to flexible make us always focus for the short-term goals - and choosing always short term benefits is obviously not optimal. And when we have these polls about what next 2-3 techs should be I am also asking myself - what next? - and may vote differently depending on our strategy.

Although playing it very safe - plain vanilla CE, sound army, nothing special - is probably sound strategy, at least for 2-3 place. Although a bit boring, IMHO

 

[Caledorn]

LOL, thanks for the support and the kind words, but the scenario you describe if would have been feasible to us, what would have stopped other teams to have that favorable situation and prevent them from grabbing that great opportunity themselves? If it is easy and safe strategy, why someone would leave it only especially to us?

Well, that's the thing: we don't know if someone else is already onto the same thoughts as we are. And given the amount of good players in this game it is totally unbelievable for me that noone isn't. I suspect the Pyramids are already under construction somewhere. What's the question to me is: What turn is their completion?

 

[2metraninja]

Although playing it very safe - plain vanilla CE, sound army, nothing special - is probably sound strategy, at least for 2-3 place. Although a bit boring, IMHO

This is my belief too and I had said it few times already. Safe and sound game will give us safe and sound medium position on the final. It is not the end of the world, it is only I am used to win my games Well, this is not only my game of course. It is a team game. But we as a team must decide if the result of our game must be the average of all our team members MP civ skills, if it is going to be "the weakest link determines how strong the whole chain is" or "we take the best ideas of our best players and put it to good use".

 

[Caledorn]

On the other hand, lack of strategy also begins to be demoralizing..

I think Cal you talk about strategy in a sense of rigid schedule of goal to be achieved for specific turns. I was thinking more in terms what our priorities are. For example, with wonders, we could have a priority list early on.

I am all for flexibility. The problem is that being to flexible make us always focus for the short-term goals - and choosing always short term benefits is obviously not optimal. And when we have these polls about what next 2-3 techs should be I am also asking myself - what next? - and may vote differently depending on our strategy.

Although playing it very safe - plain vanilla CE, sound army, nothing special - is probably sound strategy, at least for 2-3 place. Although a bit boring, IMHO

Good point. I am not opposed to a strategy on the lines you describe here. What I am opposed to is, as you have already surmised perfectly, a strategy that gives us long term goals that we get so focused on that losing a wonder e.g. would be devastating to all our plans. I would for instance oppose the thought of trying to get a religious victory if it was our only plan, and it requires us to get the AP, as that is a too narrow strategy with too much risk of failure. If it was presented as a possible strategy without derailing us from the greater picture (at present I believe our strategy is to settle good land, build a strong defense, and discuss possible strategies while opportunities arise), I would agree to it. I just used that as an example btw, since it's being talked about. I love the novelty of it, even though it's nearly impossible to pull through without a situation like the one 2metra mentioned with a sinking ship-civ voting for us.

 

[Maga_R]

Yeah, I think we on the same page here.

I was proposing we will try to thing how we can differentiate ourselves from the pack - everybody is likely to try to settle good land, build strong economy, decent army etc.

For example, if we would consider leveraging region somehow, we should start to thing about spreading our religion to other civs, build temple for prophet/shrine etc. But as ninja was advocating for the Pyramids, one should stay open to other options to the last moment possible. And in civ normally you have many good options, often second chances. Even if we lose eg apostolic palace, we should have considerable income from spreading religion. Apostolic Palace can be also retaken - especially if you have geneal 2metraninja on the team .Definitely we will not always get our option A, but having more clarity what it is - and what are our option B, C and D - would be nice, I think, and will facilitate making these small decisions we have to do all the time.

 

[Maga_R]

This is my belief too and I had said it few times already. Safe and sound game will give us safe and sound medium position on the final. It is not the end of the world, it is only I am used to win my games Well, this is not only my game of course. It is a team game. But we as a team must decide if the result of our game must be the average of all our team members MP civ skills, if it is going to be "the weakest link determines how strong the whole chain is" or "we take the best ideas of our best players and put it to good use".

We basically have to decide if we want to play it safe for a respectable result or bet big - and perhaps loose - by trying something new and unexpected. But also have a chance to be immortalized in annals of MP history forever. Perhaps as a cautionary tale, though, of excellent players suddenly going insane, lol. I think it is mostly temperament issue - what is our risk tolerance? Is the defeat worse for us - or boredom?

 

[Maga_R]

I love the novelty of it, even though it's nearly impossible to pull through without a situation like the one 2metra mentioned with a sinking ship-civ voting for us.

Yeah, that is the biggest problem, of course :-D

Although when you think of it, our strategy is not get get involved in any war anytime soon. So far, we are far from being a leader. If in later stages RB - or somebody else - will start to eliminate weaker rivals, situation like that may arise. What worries me most is the human factor: dying civ has no reason to not to vote for us, but it does not mean they will, everybody has a right to act irrational.

So what we can do in anticipation of such scenario would be to spread our religion whenever possible. For eg, we could offer religion exchange to RB - would help us both with happiness as both temples could be build.

We could also propose it to everybody with NAP - asking for example a unit for missionary or some other repayment, perhaps in the future? At some point we would gain from this strategy in form of shrine income irrespective of AP. And we would have something of value to offer to potential allies.

 

[vranasm]

not everything can be planned beforehand. On this I have to give points to ninja... it is good to have some outlook into next 20 turns what you want to do.

Since we already know that in MP there is only domination victory we should plan how we outtech and outproduce our competition, this is our LONGTERM strategy.

Food, Mfg, Land area are metrics that are most important for us, being there 1-3 place is GOOD.
Obviously since it's human players game diplomacy is actually more critical to our succes then if we get Mids or not, doesn't mean we should make suboptimal decisions while building our empire since then our diplomacy has nothing to be backed with (it's always better to make diplomacy from the being powerful side then the other).

I really think we did some really bad decisions in early 40 turns which we are paying now a bit, but that is past... we have still very good land around us which should be settled and improved, there is no hurry to actually war any neighbor.

We should not panic now that we're jumping from few turns strategy to another one...we have to leverage our land and basically play the map.

if we were in SP game we for sure would not build Mids that point is imo pretty clear, doesn't mean that the MP game offers us opportunity for late Mids though... human players play different...they usually play the map (unlike AI) and if no one is Ind and no one has stone...they just won't build it just because they got masonry.


I would just repeat myself... reserved yes... if we come into T84 and the Mids are still open....try them in <5 turns if metra can do some micro about this.

Actually can we settle 2 cities up to T84? we can settle next city from Teraswin in good location (east corn+flood plains, horses flood plains area) and prepare another settler to settle t84 and prepare chops in teraswin?
will influence a lot our worker turns, but the hammers from forests can be turned into s/w if the T84 situation would look like "no Mids".

 

[1889]

The Pyramid vote is over so this has become a strategy thread. There is lots of talk of a religious victory but still our tech plan delays priesthood, which delays Prophets, which delays our shrine, which could improve our economy and help spread religion. The tech path is the basis of our long term strategic goals, not wonders.

 

[talonschild]

Yes. For what it's worth, I support solid respectable play to reckless audacity.

 

[2metraninja]

Risk taking is where one can distinguish himself and take some nice advantage.

 

[Caledorn]

Risk taking is where one can distinguish himself and take some nice advantage.

Of course. But it is also where the distinguishment one achieves is to be considered foolish if the gamble is too high and you lose. Difficult to balance..

 

[talonschild]

 

[2metraninja]

If you dont try, you will never know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpB5oLYlQmI

 

[Maga_R]

Of course. But it is also where the distinguishment one achieves is to be considered foolish if the gamble is too high and you lose. Difficult to balance..

I agree the decision is difficult. But it is good to realize we have such options.

I understand initially Captain Sommers strategy was to wait for RB and other opponents to make mistakes. And he mentioned RB are arrogant and will start to blunder soon. But so far they have been acted very reasonable and friendly toward us - and comfortably assumed leader position :-(

So the question is what do we do if they will continue act this way?

 

[Maga_R]

If you dont try, you will never know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpB5oLYlQmI

rotfl