The adjacency mechanic is perhaps the crown jewel of civ6, and many people find it very fun!How about replacing adjacency bonus with a population bonus? This would buff tall without penalizing wide. Perhaps something like campus and theater +1 for every 4 pop, industrial and holy site +1 for every 3 pop, commercial and harbor +1 for every 2 pop. Then change the adjacency policy cards to +50% population bonus for the district, and the buildings policy cards to +50% per citizen working in the buildings.
The adjacency mechanic is perhaps the crown jewel of civ6, and many people find it very fun!
I think the adjacency bonus is indeed a pretty defining feature of Civ 6, but I would argue that it has too much impact and for too long in the game. In my current game, I happened to settle close to a +5 Campus spot in my capital. Yes, it's not every game you get that, but this campus with a library has - along with Pingala and a scientific city state - alone been enough to let me fly through the tech tree well into the medieval era. So I think we need a steeper tech cost progression through eras, coupled with additional science sources coming into relevance after the first couple of eras, and the obvious solution to this will be a per-population link between Libraries and Universities. This will mean naked adjacency yield will be important for your very early game, whereas building yields will carry the weight from mid-game and onwards, which is how it should be imo. Late game stuff like Research Labs should feed heavily into specialists, so that these should become an important source for science in late game.It doesn't have to be one or another...some form of scaling value of districts based on population size would be a good thing, and make sense. @Monthar's idea is a simple way of doing it, although I agree with @Sostratus that the adjacency mechanic is prettty great. How about keeping that as is, but giving per pop bonuses to buildings instead? So you can build a University in a small city, but it will not yield as much as a University in a larger one.
The xml does have an extra science % for being behind in science but currently it is set to 0.
Hmm, maybe it has been changed and now does make a difference.... this is the pair of them from global params.Which one? I would be interested in testing it out.
There is a subtle but key distinction between making science harder to get and making science itself less valuable sometimes.I think this whole area is pretty tricky, and I'm not sure I'm totally clear on what needs to happen.
The start of this discussion was a wide science penalty, which has been discussed before and @FearSunn has a mod which does that. I don't mind the idea of a wide science penalty... but I'm not sure "what" problem it's fixing and whether its a "good" solution to whatever that problem is. Reducing the free amenity for new Cities also sounds interesting, but again I'm not quite sure what's trying to be achieved.
I play with a house rule of now more than 3 campuses by turn x. But that's clunky. If you have zero good campus spots, you need more campuses (and rightly so), but my rule doesn't really allow for that. And if it was a proper game rule, all that would happen is that every civilization would build, you know, three campuses. Talk about predictable play! You'd really need some way to scale Campuses, so that if you want more than three, you can do that provided you invest.
I think there are a few different issues here. One, campus spam. Two, specifically, campus spam leading to ICS. Three, science is too easy to get (which is linked to campus spam and wide, but it's solely about that). Four, ICS having no real downside (which some people like and some people don't). Five, lack of empire management. Six, specifically, the amenity, happiness and loyalty systems being more meaningful (i.e. people like them, but they currently don't do much).
I doubt there's one solution for all that. Personally, I think a good starting point would be to make Campuses more expensive in terms of gold maintenance, and then make gold more important and more scarce. The devil would be in the details - i.e. getting the numbers exactly right. I also think some sort of empire maintenance would be good too - I don't think the amenity system etc. needs to be ditched, but it needs to be tweaked to be more meaningful.
There is a subtle but key distinction between making science harder to get and making science itself less valuable sometimes.
For example, if you simply raised all tech costs, science itself wouldn't be any less valuable - you'd just slow the game down. People want science because techs themselves are very strong. That won't change even if you adjust the overall level of science available to players.
But we don't necessarily want to slow the game down (okay, some people do) and we don't want people to not build any campuses - we don't want to nerf part of the game into uselessness - we specifically dislike when people only want to build campuses because then it leads to them performing outstandingly well. Proof: the AI which isn't exactly an economic master will become a runaway if they simply build campuses everywhere, IE korea. Campus spam itself is no worse than Granary spam, and many civs are designed around having their UD in almost all cities. What we want is to keep science spam from becoming an unstoppable lead. Hence, I feel the best route of attack is to first target the runaway science effect via the world era modifiers. Then we can go back and talk about tall v wide or whatever the lingo du jour is. But you have to make the value of science go down if, and only if, you're already ahead. Otherwise you'll never cure the itch for more beakers.
This effect exists with production already; once you've got enough production that you can produce infrastructure as fast as you unlock it, the value of further production drops a lot because all you can do is run projects, and the return on a project is no where near the return on a library or bank or what have you. By extending the "ahead of the world era" penalty, we can make the return on science go down only once you're ahead, and with the right penalty, you can still have tech leads but not "Korea finished the tree and I'm just discovering castles."
I'm totally side stepping like 80% of the separate issues in your post that follow from it but when these threads appear i feel it can not be overstated how far reaching the effects of "tech rushing" are in the civ6 meta game.
Firaxis is in the pocket of Big Blue! Wake up, sheeple!
To the first chunk: civ5 had the city simply not do anything for X turns after capture, X being the pop of the city. There was still an occupied City happiness penalty, which you could fix with a courthouse; which themselves had rather high maintenance (4 gold) so you didn’t get off scot free. Even just the resistance period being brought back would be a simple, solid step. It could be capped so you don’t end up with 30 turns of resistance late game but just having dead weight you have to upkeep and support without being able to repair or collect yield on would be a nice speed bump....
I think a straightforward fix would be to extend the effect of the "occupied" status that non-ceded cities have. ...
I'm one who believes in balance of design without limiting game play making one strategy significantly weaker than another. So the correct penalty for warmongers as per the above design should be set such that the warmonger and the peaceful expansionist, if they have the same number of cities, end up at nearly the same progress overall. The warmonger benefits by having an experienced army but loses the effectiveness of better placed/planned cities a human would've settled and also through grievances. But one route will not be so much better than the other that it is always better to play one way or another. In another words, if you prefer to play peacefully you are not a disadvantage, nor are you at a disadvantage through warmongering. You can continue to play however you like, both routes are equally viable when done right.
Oh, I shouldn’t have said tech rush. I don’t mean bee lining, I meant just the concept of rushing through the tech tree as fast as possible no matter the cost. Which is what science spamming tries to achieve.I don't disagree with what you're saying really. But it is all very tricky. For example, I agree tech rushing causes problems...).
Hmm, maybe it has been changed and now does make a difference.... this is the pair of them from global params.
<Replace Name="TECH_COST_PERCENT_CHANGE_AFTER_GAME_ERA" Value="20" />
<Replace Name="TECH_COST_PERCENT_CHANGE_BEFORE_GAME_ERA" Value="-20" />
I've got the old values on another PC, will check tomorrow if I remember
The adjacency mechanic is perhaps the crown jewel of civ6, and many people find it very fun!
Plus, it's not that wide players have all these +6 campus spots to use. if you ever roll a lot of good district spots, you're intended to make use of them. Adjacency, in fact, is a trivial component of your total yield in every category except production by midgame. Even if you're korea with guaranteed great campuses, the +4 on a seowon is nothing compared to +2 library +4 uni +3/+5 lab, +50%-100%, plus scientific city states. And for regular civs you don't usually have great campus spots everywhere without starting in the mountains; but even then, that doesn't scale to 20 cities. Theater squares often see +0/+1 if you don't have many wonders. If you just converted the buildings to give more science per pop instead of a flat yield, you'd solve that problem (toning down CS bonuses would still need to happen, and newton/einstein's abilities should probably not stack with rationalism.) Because then the more spread out you are, the more copies of a uni you need to build to get your science up.
This only applies in Rise and Fall. I believe In Gathering Storm there's no such modifications.
Yes, it is in the GS Paramus specifically and in the R&F I think it was 5/0 hence my ordinal comment. Cannot rest now as I have to do the ironing. I think it’s great if it does work, it is the type of balance that works IRL, old techno,ogives become common knowledge. In a way I would hate to think it does not because it is the right type of thing to stop civs lagging too much. The should have a civic one at 3%And from non-data-based feeling, I do feel like it does work.
Hmm, maybe it has been changed and now does make a difference.... this is the pair of them from global params.
<Replace Name="TECH_COST_PERCENT_CHANGE_AFTER_GAME_ERA" Value="20" />
<Replace Name="TECH_COST_PERCENT_CHANGE_BEFORE_GAME_ERA" Value="-20" />
I've got the old values on another PC, will check tomorrow if I remember
Yes they still have the parameters, but the parameters don't work. Maybe they've noticed that 40 is too long for an era so that you always get +20%, making the adjustment nonsense.Well maybe they hard-coded it to ignore but in DLC > Expansion2 > Data > Expansion2_GlobalParameters these values are set for both Civics and Techs as + or - 20%.
And from non-data-based feeling, I do feel like it does work.
Maybe we shall make these cards +5% per population, max at +100%.
Leave tier 1 district building yields flat while making tier 2 and 3 population based. For example, instead of a University giving a flat +4 science, make it +0.4 per citizen. This way a pop 10 city (the current ideal size for most cities) will benefit exactly the same as now, but a pop 20 city will double the yields. Wide empires could still spam more Campus districts and libraries, but might no longer find it efficient to buy Universities and Research labs in smaller cities