Shallow Water / Reefs / Stone Coast / Streams [IMPLEMENTED]

[raystuttgart]

Hi guys,

I often felt that Ocean / Coast is a bit dull.

It needs to be spiced up a bit.
Thus I would like to have more Terrain Features.

All of those are however "static". (So you can actually adjust strategy to it.)
They do not continuously spawn and disappear like Winds and Storms.

They should not be added just on one spot though.
I want / would generate them in clusters when Terrain Features are placed.
(Will work for both Map Generation and Scenario Maps.)

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Shallow Water (Coast):
---> generated in small clusters
Allows only small to medium Ships to pass.
(With normal movement speed. No risk of damage.)

Reefs (Ocean):
---> generated in medium clusters
Allows only small to medium Ships to pass.
(With reduced movement speed. Has a risk of causing damage.)

Stones (Coast):
---> generated in small clusters
Allows only small Coastal Ships to pass.
(With reduced movement speed. Has a risk of causing damage.)

Streams (Ocean):
---> generated in medium clusters
Allows to move with increased speed.
(Would only make sense if "distance to Europe Plots" was a bit bigger.)

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What about "Winds and Storms"?:

Winds and Storms can not be generated on such Plots.
Technically very easy because they are generated after the Map Generation itself.

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Why "Terrain Features" and not "Terrains"?

Simple answer:
I want to be able to regenerate them every time you start a Scenario Map.
(Our Maps have the capability: "Regenerate Features".)

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It is just one of my old ideas, never really created a full technical concept for it. : dunno:
But it could definitely be implemented with reasonable effort.

 

[orlanth]

That does sounds good. It would be cool to have flavor Promotions that can unlock tactical advantages for certain ships in special aquatic Features. e.g. if you could choose from Deep Keel which mitigated damage and increased movement in Storm features or Shallow Keel which removed damage from Reef features (but not both since Keel promotions would be mutually exclusive), that creates some neat tactical and strategic interests on the map. Also combat bonuses in specific features or terrains creates nice opportunities to tactically lie in wait.

 

[raystuttgart]

Once we have this here, we can use it in other features of course.

We could e.g. also:

• create Events (on those Terrain Features)
• create new Bonus Ressources (on those Terrain Features)
  
• create Promotions (for those Terrain Features)
• balance Units / Profession (considering Combat on those Terrain Features)
• ...

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Every small puzzle piece that is added to the big picture creates new possibilites and new opportunities ...
That is the cool thing as a modder ... once you start to get creative the possibilities become endless ...

 

[modmod]

Voted no for two reasons:

1. Because plots even on gigantic maps represents a very large area clusters will cover irreally large areas.
Can imagine in a different game, mainly in sail-ship simulators -> but not in this one.

2. Restricts - again:

Allows only small to medium Ships to pass.

Counted 2 times -> 50%

Allows only small Coastal Ships to pass.

Counted 1 time -> 25%
While the only positive turns out not positive at all, because:

(Would only make sense if "distance to Europe Plots" was a bit bigger.)

 

[raystuttgart]

2. Restricts - again:

Larger Ships simply need to sail around.
(There is enough space on the Ocean.)

While the only positive turns out not positive at all, because:

The effect of "streams" is simply lower if distance to Europe Plots is as small as it currently usually is anyways.
(On maps where the distance to Europe Plots is larger you would feel much more effect.)

-----

There is really nothing to worry about this concept.
It mostly just adds a bit of flavour but not real restrictions as you seem to be afraid of for some reason ...

 

[modmod]

Larger Ships simply need to sail around.

Sure.
That can make sense in atolls when that sorrunded with sea (Reefs (Ocean) and far from land plots.
So if it is far from land/ scarce -> convinced

Not in coast:
Imagine when 3-5 plots are not accesible with large ships.
Would be a very proper place to found a colony -> but because not accessible with proper ocean carriers (large ships) in this way that will be not in there for transport/ economic reasons.
Or will be push away with some plots, and by that founded in a less proper place, for example missing bonuses, increase distance between cities, cultural borders less likely meet (or meet far later), etc....
Except if the whole point to make a colony (why not fort?) there is because in that way that is protected from sea -> from military vessels/ during WOI.
Also even at game start nations which start with larger ships cannot make there an initial colony -> simply cannot ship there, so get extra difficulties.
About reality still problematic, even shallow water/ rocky shore had some seaways to harbors for a couple of large ships sail near each other. Even often was the blocade (stones/ gravel) MAN MADE to protect the harbor a bit more from tides/ storms -> BUT keep the access for large ships.
So even 1 plot which prevent access is problematic, and mainly several. Like several plots cannot be real even in RAR america gigantic in the coast. Like New York have no shipping, because it is more or less shallow water (true -> jet had seaways).
So only that part is reasonable: it can prevent/ limit the effect of winds/ storms.

(On maps where the distance to Europe Plots is larger you would feel much more effect.)

Streams ok then.

 

[raystuttgart]

Imagine when 3-5 plots are not accesible with large ship.

Maybe we should clarify the "small" / "medium" / "large" term.

• small: 1 to 2 Cargo Slots.
• medium: 3 to 4 Cargo Slots
• large: 5 to 6 Cargo Slots

On a huge / gigantic maps there might be a few Cities where you might need to use small / medium Ships to do transportations.
But it that such a huge catastrophe that not every single harbour can be reached by Galleons?
(You can still simply use e.g. "Caravels" / or "Fluyts" there. You will simply have to manage your Shgips a bit more.)

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I am 100% aware how this is going to impact gameplay - because I purposely want to have it that way.
You will simply not be able to reach every single harbour City in the Colonies by Galleons anymore ...
Is having to think a bit and adjust your gameplay a bit such a bad thing to be afraid of ?

• Sometimes you will need to use a small Ship.
• Sometimes you can still also use a medium Ship.
• Sometimes the large Ships can be used perfectly fine.
• Sometimes you will simply found your Colony at a better location.

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With the argumenation you have we could also say "Mountains ruined Gameplay!!!".
(The world ends because not every Unit can pass it instantly and Cities can not be built on top of them.)

See what I mean?

Mountains make the game more fun. Because founding Cities gets more interesting.
Why should Shallow Water, Reefs, Stone Coast and Streams ruin the game then?

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You voted and that is fine.
The other community members voted or will vote as well.

In the end we I will implement it according to that.
At the moment - when looking at the poll - I am quite confident that it will be implemented.

Otherwise simply relax a bit.
Let us please stop overxagerating and creating "giant problems" where ther are none ...

 

[modmod]

but not real restrictions as you seem to be afraid of for some reason ...

I am 100% aware how this is going to impact gameplay - because I purposely want to have it that way.

The reason why I often affraid.
Or dislike something.

Will not ruin anything (that is sure exaggeration). About 2-3 min. in world builder solves it by removing some water features from coast plots -> so not giant / hard to solve problems there.
Actually more quick to solve than argue. -> ok I stop

 

[ConjurerDragon]

The whole reason why there are so many, many lighthouses in the world (or rather were before every ship has GPS and radar) was that shallows, sandbanks, reefs and rock formations threatened to cut open or founder shipping in the age of sail. They needed to stay away from that as shipping with sails needed space, e.g. when sailing against the wind (whatever "kreuzen gegen den Wind" means) or when streams threatened to push ships onto the rocky coast. So coasts that are entirely accessible on a whole continent are a geographical abomination - the coast needs those dangers to be somewhat historical. Perhaps not 3 sheer cliffs in a row as squares are huge but several on a continent certainly.

Perfect natural harbours have been rare and sought after and should not be the norm for the whole coast.

 

[HobyMorgan]

I really like the idea; it provides more "depth" (pun intended) to a otherwise quite monotomous maritime landscape in WtP (compared to the land based terrain variability, that is). My two cents: could you classify pirate vessels as shallow draft vessels? These shoals would be perfect for pirate vessels to keep out of range for the larger colonial warships! Yarrr!

 

[raystuttgart]

So coasts that are entirely accessible on a whole continent are a geographical abomination ...

Correct.

It really destroys a bit of immersion.
And it also really boring for gameplay.

... could you classify pirate vessels as shallow draft vessels? ...

Once we introduced these Water features:

We can configure everything we want by default XML capabilities we already have.
(I can make specific "Terrain Feature Rules" for every single Ship if needed.)

Currently the only problem I have:

I will need to go begging to skilled graphical modders again for graphics ...
The rest of the implementation is a piece of cake ...

 

[raystuttgart]

@Community:

If any of you guys has ever seen (Terrain or Terrain Feature or even Bonus Ressource) graphics for these here, please let me know.
Sandbanks / Shallow Water / Reefs / Stone Coast / Streams / Fog

 

[Arkona]

The civ4 mod Caveman to Cosmos has reefs and stone reefs .
https://forums.civfanatics.com/forums/civ4-caveman-2-cosmos.449/

 

[raystuttgart]

The civ4 mod Caveman to Cosmos has reefs and stone reefs .
https://forums.civfanatics.com/forums/civ4-caveman-2-cosmos.449/

Thanks.

I simply do not play Civ4BTS myself.
I need people from community like you giving me such informations.

 

[orlanth]

Hi Ray

If you and Schmiddie would like some more nif and dds graphics to work with, I'd shared a large pack of Civ4 modding graphics on Google Drive which I'd been saving over the years for 2071 (these are compiled from various civfanatics threads) & can link those below. Although many are more scifi or modern in theme there are quite a few that could be appropriate for any area, and some of the "alien" folder buildings might be appropriate for old era Natives as well.

You can find various terrain features in the subfolders /Terrain/Features and /Terrain/Natural_Wonders in the zip file below.

Within the Features subfolder, the following could be especially good to consider for various sea and coastal land features: Coral, Kelp, Reef, Senegambian, Spawningspotsea, Stomatolites, and all of the folders starting with Rock.

(edit: Features/Falls also could work for a small inland stream).

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0BwrARpL9eZDGQVc0UmpDNHRiYzQ

 

[raystuttgart]

@orlanth
Thanks, I will take a look.

We can most likely use all kinds of graphics and transform them into "Feature Graphics".
I just want to have them as "Terrain Features" so we can regenerate them every time the Map gets played.
(With previous release I implemented the Map Option "Regenerate Terrain Features".)

 

[raystuttgart]

Most of this has been implemented already (for Release 3.1).
(It has become part of the overall Terrain Overhaul.)

The only thing that is still open is this here:
Streams (Ocean): faster Movement on Ocean

To have this work, I will most likely technically use the "Road System".

@Zeta Nexus
Do you have any idea how a "Stream" in the Ocean could look like?
(Ideally we should somehow have some kind of "Road" graphics in the Ocean - to see "directions" like we do with "Roads" already.)

 

[Tugboatspotter]

The only thing that is still open is this here:
Streams (Ocean): faster Movement on Ocean

To have this work, I will most likely technically use the "Road System".

This is also the one that is most dubious in my opinion. I assume we are referring to things like the gulf stream?

They don't change much and so the effects should already be baked in to travel ie shorter travel times in one direction than the other. Also, there is nothing to see with graphics because of how wide and deep the currents are.

 

[raystuttgart]

This is also the one that is most dubious in my opinion.

Why, streams like that exist and have been known since the first times of colonization.
(It is really possible to travel there faster.)

I assume we are referring to things like the gulf stream?

Yes, for example - because a huge part of it is still on the coasts of the New World.
(Only problem I hae is that I can not make it one-directional only yet.)

Also, there is nothing to see with graphics because of how wide and deep the currents are.

I do not want to have a "real Terrain graphic" there.
I want to show it symbolically on the map e.g. as a "dotted line". (Abusing the Road System)

----

At the moment I just want to experiment and see what I can make out of that.
(Maybe it will get something cool, maybe I will fail ...)

 

[Tugboatspotter]

Why, streams like that exist and have been known since the first times of colonization.
(It is really possible to travel there faster.)

Agreed, but I meant dubious in terms of adding gameplay - not that streams exist.

for example - because a huge part of it is still on the coasts of the New World.
(Only problem I hae is that I can not make it one-directional only yet.)


I do not want to have a "real Terrain graphic" there.
I want to show it symbolically on the map e.g. as a "dotted line". (Abusing the Road System)

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At the moment I just want to experiment and see what I can make out of that.
(Maybe it will get something cool, maybe I will fail ...)

I don't agree that it is worthwhile, but I respect your judgement if you think it is worth exploring