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Shame of Britain's Muslim schools

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Cheetah, Feb 15, 2011.

  1. Camikaze

    Camikaze Administrator Administrator

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    Yeah, and that's what pretty much everyone in the thread has been doing. Some people have taken it further to make brazen generalisations about a larger group.
    No, but if you linked this to Americans to describe the entire nation in some negative fashion than you could be dismissed on that basis.
    The whole point of this apparent 'apologism' coming up was to counter accusations made. If you think it should've stayed out of the thread, that's what you should be targeting. Did you see the post Arwon was responding to that essentially brought the issue up?

    That's unfortunately because in almost every thread where Islam comes up, there is some generalisation that needs to be set straight.
     
  2. Ekolite

    Ekolite The Mighty Jungle

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    Ahaa I was tired and slightly drunk when I wrote that.

    What I believe is that all muslim schools like that should be closed. I've editted the offending post. So should other schools like the one in the OP, but its my belief that if you were to close all such schools in England then most of them would be Muslim.
     
  3. Arwon

    Arwon

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    Ralph: Most of the time people criticise Islamic things it's with an ulterior motive and a blind spot a mile wide. That requires a response, yo.

    Eko: OK, fine, we're back to "bad things are bad" then. I agree, bad things are, indeed, bad. But really, let's go after the Exclusive Brethren, too. And some of the more stringent Christian schools.

    Actually, I'm all in favour of making everyone learn the same hippy-dippy libertine values I personally espouse. That way harmony lies.
     
  4. Tee Kay

    Tee Kay Just a passenger

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    How many years worth of oil does Saudi Arabia has left? 50 years? 100 years?
     
  5. RedRalph

    RedRalph Chieftain

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    But it happens in every thread where any aspect of Islam is criticised Camikaze, people rush to point out some example of a Christian or Jew doing something roughly equivalent. It happens every time.
     
  6. RedRalph

    RedRalph Chieftain

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    No, it doesn't. Why do you need to defend this religion? Why not just admit there are appalling aspects of it and some people's interpretation of it and leave it at that? If someone is idiotic enough to think the actions of a few are the same as the actions of 1.3 billion then they are too stupid to be convinced anyway.
     
  7. Camikaze

    Camikaze Administrator Administrator

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    Again, that's because there is something to respond to every time. I don't really see people pre-emptively defending bad stuff just because it comes from a Muslim organisation. I see people defending Muslims in general when someone makes some false generalisation. I fail to see how there is a problem with that at all.

    The method by which this is done is directly tying Islam to traditional 'Western' religions, something that brings home the point of Muslims not actually being some sort of Big Evil Foreign Threat. It might get annoying in its repetition, but it's only repeated because it's effective in what it conveys.
     
  8. Tee Kay

    Tee Kay Just a passenger

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    You'd be surprised how easily misleading generalizations like that can catch on.
     
  9. Arwon

    Arwon

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    Because it's not "a religion" it's a whole bunch of people who profess a religion. You know, individuals, who aren't really responsible for each other?
     
  10. RedRalph

    RedRalph Chieftain

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    Why don't you rush to point out how normal most Chinese people are when someone criticises the CCP or how un-psychopathic most Christians are when someone criticises the WBC? you don't, because it isn't neccesary and it isn't here either.

    Like I said, I think all of yer motives are honourable, but misguided.
     
  11. Arwon

    Arwon

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    Because in both those cases people are usually aware of it. The same awareness is less apparent when someone goes "ooh look how screwed Islam is, they're ruining our country" in response to what happens in one bloody school.
     
  12. newfangle

    newfangle hates you.

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    If the tenants of Islam were contained to one school, there'd be many fewer people annoyed with it. Religious fundamentalism is a tumor, and soft moderates like you allow it to metastasize.
     
  13. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Chieftain

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    I can see what RRW is saying - I don't think that religious doctrines should be immune to criticism any more then any other ideology is. It's perfectly valid to wonder if a religion helps a negative factor X in a society to take roots.

    However, the anti-religion crusaders tend to be annoying and prone to simplistic worldviews, arguments and twisting of history. I guess it's because mainstream religions are complex affairs that can't be pronounced "Good" or "Evil", and many of the aforementioned crusaders have some other ideological axes to grind (like xenophobia).

    Personally, when I hear someone bash a religion, I immediately think of its good qualities, and when I hear someone praise a religion, its bad qualities immediately come to my mind.
     
  14. Arwon

    Arwon

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    That's absolute rubbish and, again, an absurd double standard under the cloak of Hitchens fanboyism to think either "this school = all Islam" or "this school = all Islamic schools". Close the school or change the rules so it cna't get money without being much more progressive, don't generalise to all Muslim schools.

    If a significant fraction of Muslims were anything like the militant fundie caricature we'd have far bigger problems than a bit of angst in the Daily Mail. Luckily Wahabbism is an unpopular fringe sect even though the sect has extensive Saudi backing.
     
  15. Camikaze

    Camikaze Administrator Administrator

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    Well if someone is making false generalisations about the Chinese people, and particularly about Christians (given I am one), then I am at pains to correct them. But the leap from 'the CCP is bad' to 'Chinese people are bad' is thankfully often not made, whereas the leap from 'this Islamic school is bad' to 'Islamic people are bad' is.
     
  16. Virote_Considon

    Virote_Considon The Great Dictator

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    I'm happy to generalize to all non-state schools.

    You give Wahabbism too little credit. It matters not how many people ascribe to it; it is the most dominant and active threat to liberalism which exists at this moment. In fact, I would go so far as to say that it is the only threat. Adherents may be few and spread, but boy, are they spread. From Chechnya to Europe to throughout the world.

    Their ideology to liberalism is what China is to America - no direct threat as of yet, but its potential (due to being the nearest) is massive. Thus, you need to look at how similar ideological threats were dealt with - was Fascism allowed to practice unhindered? Communism? Anarchism? They were all stamped out when needed!

    The point isn't to decry all Muslims, its to decry the ever-growing influence of a particular Muslim ideology - an ideology which may not be growing significantly in numbers, but is certainly growing in influence. And this ideology hates what the West currently stands for as much as any other.
     
  17. NovaKart

    NovaKart شێری گەورە

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    Just to get something straight, not all radical Muslims are Wahabbi and not all Wahabbi Muslims are terrorist supporters.

    One thing that does separate Wahabbi Islam from other forms of Islam is that they are very orthodox in their beliefs, they are against worship of saints (yes some Muslims pray at the tombs of Islamic holy men), many traditional Muslim holidays like the Prophet's birthday and other practices that don't come directly from the Quran or Hadith.

    Sometimes it can be difficult to separate radical Muslim influence that comes from Saudi Wahabbis and from other sources since people that would generally be considered Wahabbi often don't use the term Wahabbi to describe themselves. Still, I would say that you can't narrow down all radical Islam to this source, not even all radical Sunni Islam.
     
  18. Arwon

    Arwon

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    Please describe for me the "stamping out" of anarchism or communism in, say, the UK. Or even Fascism, really.

    Among radicals, though, who's got the cash for running private schools in non Muslim majority countries though?
     
  19. NovaKart

    NovaKart شێری گەورە

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    I never said that Wahabbi Muslims don't have a lot of influence but certain comments make it sound like Wahabbis are the only radical Muslims. Also, they're not a single organization and they don't even call themselves Wahabbi but Salafi.
     
  20. Arwon

    Arwon

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    Oh, if that was the impression I was giving, it's not what I was intending - just talking about the influence Saudi education funding has in places where Islamic education gets insufficient local support (ie, much of the West and plenty of poor Muslim countries).
     

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