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Sheaim lack

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by jacomanring, Dec 25, 2008.

  1. jacomanring

    jacomanring Chieftain

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    Merry christmas from Italy to everyone!!!!!!!!

    Now, getting back to important matters...;)

    I've just played with Sheaim and I noticed they don't have NO CHAMPION (and thus lacking berserk, immortal, phalanx...)!!!! Maybe it's because they have the Planar Gate and so gain access to various units that others don't have...

    I don't know, I felt it quite hard to swallow...Don't think manticore (most powerful units entering planar gate) can match with Immortals...

    P.S. to tell the true, I am really dumb, cause I play FFH 2 since the 0.32 and I've never noticed this lack...or it was changed recently??
     
  2. Methuselah

    Methuselah King

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    It's been like that for a while now, since 0.34 if I remember correctly.

    The manticore is quite strong, it just can't use weapons like immortals can.
     
  3. Blakmane

    Blakmane Prince

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    The Sheaim deliberately don't have access to those units, to make up for their powerful arcane line/summons and planar gate creatures.

    None of the gate creatures are quite as good or reliable, but they are free.
     
  4. PotatoOverdose

    PotatoOverdose Prince

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    Also, the Sheaim get pyre zombies as replacements for axemen to complement their very strong arcane line. Pyre zombies are one of the best units in the game so they don't really lack for power in that department.
     
  5. ushram

    ushram Balseraph puppet

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    They dont need them when they have pyre zombies, I was just about to make a post about pyre zombies. Playing a game last night had an AI come into my borders with a stack of 15 pyre zombies. I had 10 champions(with iron), 5 centaur chargers, 4 centaurs, priest of leaves, 2 warriors, 2 archers and 75% culture defense bonus on a city with a hill. Those 15 pyre zombies took out my whole stack and still had 7 left. I reloaded the game 4 turns before the attack and they still wiped out my stack with 5 pyre zombies left...:lol:

    edit: 4 of the champions had hill defense and the archers had city 1
     
  6. lordrune

    lordrune Prince

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    Yeah, pyre zombies are by a country mile the most fearsome unit in the game, taking into account their availability, versatility, and cost.
     
  7. ushram

    ushram Balseraph puppet

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    I just think that explosion they make when dying needs to have a % cap, like 50%. Its just ridiculous that they can actually kill units with the explosion.
     
  8. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

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    agreed. pyre zombies explosions are way too powerful. imho that should get a damage cap.
     
  9. Halgost

    Halgost Chieftain

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    I agree. Pyre Zombies need a tweak.

    Remembering a game that I had recently - playing as the Khazak on Deity. The strongest opponent (obviously) was Tebryn. As I was playing an Erebus map, we were on the same continent, but separated by mountains. No choice but a sea attack for me.

    I unloaded 15 Champions at once, and bam! gone they were. Repeated that with the same result. If I had not been playing the Khazak, I'd have switched tactics and nuked them from safe distance with fire mages, but this of course was no option with no accessibility to mages at all.

    I finally managed to break through the defense by utilizing micro-management hell: building a lot of ships, bringing in a few champions at once, attacking from sea, retreating, repeat. With terrible losses of course.

    It was a hell of a match (pun intended :crazyeye:), but it left me with a bitter taste. Micro-managing at this extent is no fun. Sure, if playing at Deity, micro-management is a must, but the extent I encountered was beyond limits. When I looked at the statistics after I had won the match, I found that I had produced about 500(!) champions (the match ended at about turn 450). Usually I get along with 50, at most 100 per match. It was a small map by the way.

    Maybe I've overlooked something - but after thinking about this match again and again I'm almost sure there was no way around micro-management hell in this game.

    I understand that one of Kael's premises for features is: "Is it fun?" - and my impression is that Pyre Zombies can be very, very frustrating with no effective way of dealing with them. Alright, I admit it's a particular Khazad problem, but still.

    The questions remains how to deal with the Pyre Zombies. Maybe introducing a damage cap for the explosion will do the trick, but I'm not sure, since Sheaim mid-game might be pretty built around them as of now (this might be a matter of dispute, I'm no Sheaim expert). I was rather thinking of the good old rock-scissor-paper thing; maybe someone has a good idea how to introduce an effective counter to these guys. I know there's magic resistance, but these promotions are so hard to get that it's no real option.
     
  10. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

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    I think a nice option is having them explode when killed on defense, damaging their own stack. that way they would require someone to protect them otherwise they go kaboom :D
     
  11. PotatoOverdose

    PotatoOverdose Prince

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    Pyre Zombies are what the Sheaim get to replace Axemen, Champions, Phalanx, and Immortals. As such, I do not believe they are overpowered.

    Also, they are very easy to counter. All you need to counter them in your own borders is either a) roads or b)a stack of units with a movement of 2 or greater, i.e. any recon or mounted unit, or any other unit with the mobility I promotion. Park your stack two tiles away and attack. All of a sudden, your stack of champions (or w/e, champions were examples previous poster used) are owning the stack of pyre zombies. Pyre zombies are only deadly to superior units if the enemy stack parks itself right next to them. And if the enemy is stupid enough to park its large stack next to a horde of suicide bombers, well...they deserve to die. Also, iirc pyre zombie damage is directly proportional to their overall strength which is influenced by their health and their promotions. So, if you lower their strength through high withdrawal units or collateral damage (and theirs a wonderful unit that has both- the catapult) the explosion damage will be reduced. Pyre Zombie explosions are only bad when you a) kill zombies that started the combat at full health and b) park your entire stack next to said zombies. Proper tactics take care of both problems.

    Pyre zombies add something that is unique to the sheaim, they add a unique mechanic to the game, they are a tool the AI can use well, they are a tool the AI can counter well, and many units and promotions exist that can counter them well. In other words, its a good mechanic, and I think its a fun mechanic (though this is entirely subjective).

    IMO, the best testament to the Pyre Zombie's balance is the fact that the AI has little trouble countering them. I've seen the AI sheaim fail and succeed as much as any other AI. If pyre zombies were overpowered, wouldn't their AI success stand out relative to other AI successes? In my last game the sheaim were my neighbors. They had huge stacks of zombies, but were eliminated quickly by the Bannor. If the AI can do it, why can't the game expect the player to be able to counter pyre zombies?
     
  12. Ranos

    Ranos King

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    I just finished a game in which I started out right next to the Sheaim. I'm new to FfH2 and this was my first encounter with them. I was the good elves (sorry, can't remember how to spell their name). After realizing they explode when you attack, I withdrew my troops a tile and just sent in one at a time. Easily countered.
     
  13. Monkeyfinger

    Monkeyfinger Deity

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    What you overlooked was dwarven druids. You should have found a peak near a coast, scouted it with a hawk, then had the druids spam crush on the closest megastack they could find. Then, land some spread out champions.

    Unless, that is, you were running AV or order. If so, let that be a lesson to you: Never, ever, EVER adopt those religions as the dwarves.
     
  14. jacomanring

    jacomanring Chieftain

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    As PotatoOverdoes and Ranos point out, Pyre zombie are easily countered (even by the AI)!! The fact that exploding they manage to kill near units can be annoying but I wouldn't say it's exaggerated...after all, if something big as a zombie explodes, it could well kill...well, a lot of things!

    ...and I keep on thinking that it's a shame not to have Immortal if playing with the Sheaim!! I think it creates a wide gap between basic and advanced units. Maybe pyre zombie could upgrade to Immortal losing they're "ability" to explode...
     
  15. BugReportage

    BugReportage Warlord

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    If you want a champion.
    Try diseased corpses + cure disease. There you go. (it works and they are freaking awesome)
     
  16. heisenberg

    heisenberg Lost in Erebus

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    Manticores were meant to be parallel to the old War Chariots and Knights (thus having similar stats), and the Minotaurs for the melee line.
    Sure, Manticores/Minotaurs might not have the immortal ability the Immortals have, but don't forget that as a tier 4 replacement, you are -not- limited by the usual national limit of 4.
    In fact iirc you can get up to 1 of each per planar gate per 25 AC, so that's effectively a horde of "tier 4" units you could theoretically toss out if you had enough planar gates and managed to drive the AC up high.
     
  17. slowcar

    slowcar King

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    i would also love to have pyro zombies capped in their damage.
    sure, you can manage to fight them but on high difficulties it is just PITA.
    after taking out a first (or two) civs with warriors i usually have about 3-4 highlvl axemen acompanied by a couple of freshmen.
    they have 99,99% chance to win (combat5+shock2+drill X) - but are easily taken out by pyro zombies. even a damage cap of 60% or something would be ok.

    the argumentation that they replace the whole metal line is bogus. they are available early and should be balanced against early units. the sheaim are supposed to be played differently, if you play them as a standard fighting civ it is ok that they are weaker.
     
  18. Halgost

    Halgost Chieftain

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    Your premise is in your own borders (and I totally agree to your solution in this case). I however tried to point out a situation were I had to execute a sea attack. Again I admit that the situation I encountered is pretty particular, but the main point should be taken - that whole stacks of wtfuberpowered troopers can be eaten up by cheap mid-game troops. (Tebryn also fielded arquebuses and stuff - all no match to my champions. It's a good thing the AI doesn't build even more pyre zombies.)

    I'm well aware of the druids, but they were way down the tech road the time I ran into the Sheaim. Commune with nature is a costly technology, and the tech path doesn't synergize very well with the Khazad. (I know some people like to get the druids early on, but I have yet to see such a strategy work at high difficulty levels - after all, it's "just" 4 units that you get.)
     
  19. PotatoOverdose

    PotatoOverdose Prince

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    On high difficulties, its supposed to be difficult. And the argument that it is too difficult is just bogus. Play a deity ffh game and play a deity bts game. The deity bts game is harder. If you want to have easier pyre zombies(which is what your asking for), you can turn down the difficulty. The fact that, god forbid, the AI can wield a unit's unique ability effectively is a good thing. Pyre zombies can be countered and beaten with relative ease, the fact that you don't know how or choose not too is not a poor reflection of pyre zombies, but a poor reflection of something else...


    My premise was that you were either in you own territory (in which case roads allow the slowest units to move 2 tiles) or your stack had a movement of 2 (easily accomplished). It is true that this premise would not work for the turn that you land your troops on an enemy beachhead, but there are alternatives.

    For an attack by sea you simply have to alter your strategy. Either have a) magic units b) catapults c)any other high withdrawal unit attack from a ship. There are any number of spells for an attack by sea that work effectively against pyre zombies, the ever powerful tsunami, maelstrom, fireball, ring of flame, pillar of flame, water elementals, air elementals, crush, etc. all cast while your units are on their boats. Alternatively, have your catapults attack the stack while on the boat.

    However, if you are complaining that landing a huge force on a heavily fortified enemy beachhead is difficult and creates many casualties, well...its supposed to be difficult and painstaking. The fact that the AI makes it so simply proves that it is working as intended. Landing a huge force on a beachhead is like storming Normandy, it is supposed to hurt.
     
  20. Thunder_Gr

    Thunder_Gr Emperor

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    Pyro Zombies are fine as they are IMHO. It gives you a challenge when having to face the Shaeim...It makes you think better ways to defeat them. They gave me a hard time last time I faced them, but I think thats fine. The game shouldn't be too easy to win.
     

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