Sheaim vs. Infernals: What advantage?

[ScottishViking]

Longtime Civ4 player, FFHII newbie (but LOVING it so far -- AMAZING work).

Question: I'm playing a single player campaign, marathon, huge, as Sheaim. By the time I get Ashen Veil, with its great heroes, combined with a fully-developed empire of Sheaim, why would I bother switching to Infernals with Infernal Pact? Am I reading it wrong that you simply lose all your empire, units and all? Or do your units switch over? If you lose all of the "stuff", what's the incentive when you're facing down one or more fully-developed empires? Is it just so that you can avoid the penalties of hell terrain?

Anyways, hoping you can clarify!

SV

 

[Avahz Darkwood]

you loose every thing, but gain the percs of being a demon empire. Some of these include demonic citizens that don't need food to survive, when an evil unit (more or less) dies in the game you get a free mane unit that can be upgraded or added to your population, you want to increase the AC to hurt your enemies, etc.

 

[ScottishViking]

you loose every thing, but gain the percs of being a demon empire. Some of these include demonic citizens that don't need food to survive, when an evil unit (more or less) dies in the game you get a free mane unit that can be upgraded or added to your population, you want to increase the AC to hurt your enemies, etc.

Thanks for the response.

So...I'm still a little at a loss why all this is an advantage compared to having your whole, developed empire. Seems like a crippling tradeoff in larger games.

 

[cIV_khanh93]

the goal is to play the infernals like avahz said. You usually will plan this swithc from the beginning though... or use it to dig your way out of a high to low.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

One big advantage is that Hyborem, unlike the Sheaim leaders (excluding Averax, ut he is only a minor leader from a scenario), has the barbarian trait, so the Armageddon units won't harm him. That, combined with the fact that none of his unit are alive and that he has the fallow trait, makes Armageddon purely beneficial for them.


The Infernal World spell lets you steal one of the top 3 AV cities, so you don't give up your whole empire.


The free buildings in all Infernal cities are quite nice. You get free elder councils, training yards, obsidian gates (way before the tech that allows them), forges, mage guilds, and Demonic Citizens (which negates all unhappiness and unhealthiness). Their cities also start at size 3 instead of size 1, but unfortunately never grow unless you add manes to them.


If the evil religions are widespread, then the Infernals can quickly become quite strong. If the world is mostly good then switching may be unwise.



In my version, I've made the Infernals (and Mercurians) much, much stronger, so switching is more appealing.

 

[ScottishViking]

One big advantage is that Hyborem, unlike the Sheaim leaders (excluding Averax, ut he is only a minor leader from a scenario), has the barbarian trait, so the Armageddon units won't harm him. That, combined with the fact that none of his unit are alive and that he has the fallow trait, makes Armageddon purely beneficial for them.


The Infernal World spell lets you steal one of the top 3 AV cities, so you don't give up your whole empire.


The free buildings in all Infernal cities are quite nice. You get free elder councils, training yards, obsidian gates (way before the tech that allows them), forges, mage guilds, and Demonic Citizens (which negates all unhappiness and unhealthiness). Their cities also start at size 3 instead of size 1, but unfortunately never grow unless you add manes to them.


If the evil religions are widespread, then the Infernals can quickly become quite strong. If the world is mostly good then switching may be unwise.



In my version, I've made the Infernals (and Mercurians) much, much stronger, so switching is more appealing.

OK, I'm beginning to see the logic. Another question: do all the buildings in the Infernal World city (the one you steal) stay? (I'm thinking wonders, troop buildings, etc.)

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Yes, you keep the buildings (including wonders) from the city their worldspell steals.

Note however that you can't use the worldspell until you research Malevolent Designs. Also, it doesn't give you any units to defend the stolen city so if you take it from an enemy make sure you use the planar gates to move your troops in immediately.

 

[ScottishViking]

So, given all this, assuming you were planning on summoning and playing the Infernals from the start, how would you play? Defensively, with only enough expansion to guarantee sufficient gate units and research for Infernal Pact?

 

[Avahz Darkwood]

Start off defensively spread the AV to as many cities as possible.. Force, bribe, etc as many nations to adopt AV as possible, than as soon as possible rack up the AC so chaos begins and wars erupt. Then once you are strong enough attack the closest AV civ as you can so that as you kill their units to convert to your manes (no one said demons are loyal friends). Then destroy the world with a domination/conquest victory...

(I know this is an abridged version, but its pretty much it in a nut shell - humm in fact you would play the Mercurians pretty much the same way with the exception of racking up the AC and the AV religion you would use the order, fol, emp, and runes.)

 

[scutarii]

So, given all this, assuming you were planning on summoning and playing the Infernals from the start, how would you play? Defensively, with only enough expansion to guarantee sufficient gate units and research for Infernal Pact?

start with lurchuirp, choose financial-industrious leader.

Starting location: either lots of wineyards or flood plains.

Start building golem worker, research masonry for worldspell. use it.

engineer pops out? settle him.

...or use him later for rushing bone palace. You NEED that golden age.

techs are toward AV, research also Education and mining, if you are on flood plains(for cottages) or have gold mines nearby.

As soon as you have researched AV, switch to SoW civic - it boost population nicely for...you.
Save before switching to Hyborem. Reload if spawned Hyborem is not close to your "summoner". When you as Hyborem are close to your spawner, conquer his only city and due to 10+ population and holy city it is wise to build your capital there instead of trying to develope Hyborem's capital, Dis. But you need 4 cities for switching your capital.

Try to obtain great sage and build stigmata of the unborn wonder to holy city( your capital - notice that Hyborem's capital adds 50% to hammers): units built there will get automatically stigmata promo: it adds 50% of AC to your strenght - 50 AC grants via stigmata 25% additional strenght.

Go to conquest mode immediatey: raze all less than 4 pop cities. why? Your settlers build automatically 3 pop cities, so you can choose you preferred location.And you'll get manes.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I'd say you should get 2 cities and try to found multiple religions and build multiple wonders in in your non-capital city. (I think I forgot to mention that the Infernal Worldspell cannot steal capitol cities, because I usually change that.) You should focus on spreading AV, OO, and CoE to as many civs as you can.

You may actually want to focus on spreading OO the most, so you don't have to face HN units and don't make it too easy for rivals to beat you to the Infernal Pact tech. You may even want to adopt OO first, so you can pressure all the Good civs to switch to OO. It is pretty much impossible to convince a good civ to adopt AV and turn evil, but it is much easier to convince them to adopt OO or CoE to become neutral, which then makes them more likely to adopt AV when you ask them later. Ideally you'll get everyone to adopt OO and then convince them to switch to AV just before you finish Infernal Pact, so the world is already really evil but no one has tine to bring in Hyborem before you can. All Infernal cities gain AV each turn, but it is harder for them to get CoE and OO, both of which you would want even if you cannot adopt them. CoE's HN units are good for weakening civs and collecting manes to get make strong enough for an all out war. Since Savants can only be sacrificed for research, I like to build a lot of Zealots when I play as the Infernals to use them to end the anarchy in newly conquered cities and get the cities turning out their own troops as soon as possible.


The Infernals start with all the techs of the civ that summons them, but often cannot keep up with their rivals research until they have managed to expand through conquest. You should try to make sure you have all the really important techs before you finish Infernal Pact. Priesthood and Necromancy are my top priorities. Make sure you share Necromancy with other civs (preferably getting some other tech for it), and also share Death/Entropy mana so that your rivals' arcane units will serve Hyborem after death. Not only will this encourage the other civs to take these promotions, but it also encourages them to build their own nodes of these types as the AI prefers multiples of the same types of nodes (even though they still like to trade away their extras, which could cause a chain reaction and encourage evil magic use among everyone). Giving away all your death and entropy mana will make you more popular with those you give the mana, and make them suffer the mana's diplomatic penalty instead of you. Death mana will also make them less healthy. If you go so far as Malevolent Designs before someone else you can steal a city with their worldspell in your first turn.


It would be a good idea to have your units spread out across the world, especially in unowned areas, so that you can make contact with Hyborem just before the pop up that lest you switch. If you manage to do that, you can gift all your cities (saving his worldspell for another civ's cities), gold, and resources to him, possibly before he can found his first city. The AI often founds a city before you have a chance to, and it isn't good at picking locations. If you manage to give Hyborem the AV holy city (especially if it is also the OO and CoE holy city, has all the shrines, and wonders like Form of the Titan and Prophecy of Ragnorok) before he can build a capital then he'll have an excellent capital from the start and will almost certainly do well.


It may be a good idea to send all your units away from your territory when you get close to finishing Infernal Pact, so you can invade your own territory easily if you have to.


You should try to get your cities to grow as much as you can just before the switch, as they won't grow from food after the Infernals take over. It may be wise to switch away from Slavery right before the switch, so the AI won't whip away your population for at least 10 turns.


As the spread of hell terrain would destroy forests anyway, it is wise to chop them for production before that happens.

If you are playing as the Sheaim, you should switch all cities to building the Elegy of the Sheaim ritual when you get close to finishing the Infernal pact.


The Lanun are a good civ to start as if you want to summon the Infernals. If you do it this way the Infernals will have the Seafaring tech, and thus faster ships. More importantly, coastal cities will get extra food and so grow faster. Even though the Infernals don't get the food yields from water tiles, I typically like to have a coastal capital fr the trade routes and ship building. Also, it is really hard for your rivals to stop the secret spread of hell terrain through the seas. I typically like to have the Heron throne in the city I aim to make the Infernal capital. Being a neutral civ instead of an evil one means you will have better relations with neutral and good civs and be better more able to seduce them to OO and then eventually AV.

Spiritual and Industrious leaders are good if you want to switch. Philosophical is good to to make sure you start with the shrines.

I don't think settled great people remain in captured cities, so I never settle them if I plan on turning Infernal. Using them for techs and wonders

 

[ScottishViking]

Thanks alot guys. Frankly, I hadn't considered the non-Sheaim angle on going Infernals. But it makes sense, especially if you're thinking about the whole "missionary" approach as a smokescreen for eventual switching later on.

I assume that as you convince everyone to go AV, turn evil, and then kill them later, that you get manes from killing your evil foes?

 

[ScottishViking]

NVM, I answered my own question by looking at the manual. *shame*

It occurs to me that if you're going to focus on a small number of cities, in order to build Infernals, that Sidar or Kuriotates might be good starters. Sidar gets you GPs, which you may not keep afterwards but which would really help with the building/researching, and Kurios get you that extra tile ring for your limited city count.

 

[TheGreatSteve]

If you've got the coastal start my preference is the Lanun, Hannah. Build warriors while researching fishing. Build workboats for coves while getting AC->Mysticism. Switch to God King and Pacifism, get a pagan temple in your capital. Assign a priest, make settlers while researching KotE, Philosophy, Way of the Wicked. Start Corruption, use your GP pop to finish it. Temple of the Veil in your capital, 2 more specialists. Backfill your techs, getting Agriculture, Education, and Mining for the Infernals, then Pact. When your GS/GP pops make Stigmata on the Unborn, a few turns later finish Pact and switch. Enjoy roaming the countryside with a giant demon while everyone else has horsemen.


And I'm unsure as to it's effectiveness, but try to have a weak production city making Prophecy of Ragnarok, and your strongest cities invested in other things like the Bone Palace. Making Prophecy in Dis is a coup for the Infernal, so it's good if you don't have to race your former civ for it.

Also, if you want to win by conquering the world with your demonic horde, make sure to turn off Religous Victory. The only thing worse than accidently winning by boosting AV over the threshold is accidently losing because you did it before stealing the Holy City

 

[mathkim]

How about Horsemen?
Is there any mechanism that those horsemen does not attack infernal civ?
If so, I think it's really worth playing Hyborem. Trying to make AC go high and destroy the world..

 

[Avahz Darkwood]

as long as the barbarians don't declare war on you or vise versa then no the Horsemen will not attack...

 

[MagisterCultuum]

As Avahz Darkwood said, being at peace with the Barbarians would make you safe from the horsemen, and from the Avatar of Wrath for that matter. However, I've found that the rule that the barbarian state declares war on any barb trait leader whose team's score is more than 50% higher than the next best teams often means they loose peace at the worst possible times. As such, I usually delete that bit of python.

 

[Humakty]

MC, I find your strategy really elaborated and vicious (it's a compliment), but I wonder how I'm supposed to tech three religion, that is on a reasonable difficulty level.

 

[civ_king]

BTW build an army of savants (yes they are weak, that's the point) have some strong guard units on them with like 100 total(savants), attack someone, turn before you get Infernal Pact, delete the guards, then as soon as you switch to the Infernals, you will get hordes of Manes, I did this and got a HUGE capital, (in my game I built 500 savants, lets just say it was fun )

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Well, I would typically play an advanced start game with lots of points so that I can buy 2 cities and all the religions before the game even starts. It is hard to beat the AI to FoL and RoK even in advanced start, but you can usually get the evil religions. Getting CoE also means you have trade, so you can trade techs with the the AI who probably has more of the practical techs. Your empire will probably be a lot smaller and weaker than the other civs, but you don't plan to keep it anyway.