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Ship/Vehicle Upgrades and Addons

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - Medieval: Conquests' started by Kailric, Nov 28, 2014.

  1. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    Created a thread for these ideas

    Just making them separate in the Build listing would be pretty easy as Night pointed out. There is already a separation of the FF points you can build.
     
  2. Trade Winds

    Trade Winds Chieftain

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    I also like the idea of building upgrades and attaching them to upgrade slots in ships and other kinds of transport. It has always been a bit unfair for a freighter the need of winning a battle to benefit from upgrades and not being able to build these at a ship yard. Also, your first Caravel is usually a veteran after many fights and you are not able to upgrade it with more cannons or one more cargo hold and you end up using it as a ferry to a distant island in your lands.

    Nightinggale proposed the idea of sea rations to be able to cross ocean tiles, but in a productive game as this is, why don’t make it REAL food? A ship should be loaded with real food that is consumed by the transported troops or even the ship crew. Therefore one of the ships slots is used for that load. Bigger exploration enterprises should need more space for food. And you’ll reach one point where half of the food is eaten and you have to take the decision of going back to your lands for extra food or going on at a risk of losing the expedition: Fear.

    In later stages of WHM a steamer would consume coal, so you need to buy a couple of refilling ports with collieries alongside your routes, exactly the way the British Empire did to supply their colonial voyages.
     
  3. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Chieftain Supporter

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    That was my idea until I came up with the concept of units providing promotions. The problem with "fuel" is that it quickly gets really complicated to code. Say a ship use one unit of yield for each move. Imagine wanting to move 5 plots with only 4 fuel left. Modifying CvUnit::canMoveIntoPlot() will not work because it will check if there are at least 1 unit left and do that for each plot. As all 5 plots are checked before actual movement, it will allow planning the movement of 5 plots and then get stuck after 4 plots with possibly undefined behavior.

    Making a simple promotion to allow access to a certain terrain will simplify the movement code alot. It is just a check against current abilities and those abilities will not change as the unit moves.

    Another issue is that we can kill the gameplay with micromanagement. We are already talking about the need to automate prospecting because doing it manually is no fun in the long run. Fuel for ships will likely be even worse and not really possible to automate. No automation is an issue for the AI and it will be a serious balance issue if the AI can cheat with something this important.
     
  4. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    Well, instead of preventing movement, starving units could lose health, that code would be simple. Each move or turn takes away Food, when there is no Food left the units starts losing Health each move or Turn, until it dies. The AI would need to be trained in this though, or simulated for them. Still, its more Macromanagement, but there are games that require fuel in combat. I've played some before and I remember it added to the overall strategy. This could be made into an option for people who would like more depth.
     
  5. Trade Winds

    Trade Winds Chieftain

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    Would it be better to use one fuel not for one tile but for one turn?
    Units with no fuel would stay there next turn in the same way as when a ship is sentry. In this case the ship is forced to remain sentry until their crew has died of starvation (ship taking damage). No strange gameplay concepts. It is true though, that the game doesn’t allow the transfer of goods between ships at high sea for refilling purposes.

    Starving units because of lack of food is a most interesting strategic feature in an exploration and productive game. In my opinion, vanilla should have come with this feature, or at least as an option. This way, outposts will regain their main function and exploration must be planned beforehand.
     
  6. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Chieftain Supporter

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    I want to keep this concept simple from a coding perspective. I plan on adding a promotion when adding a unit and that's it for first step. Once that is working we may consider other features, but we better not make plans so complex that they end up never getting coded.
     
  7. Trade Winds

    Trade Winds Chieftain

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    Any single feature forwards in this mod explains how far it is already.
     
  8. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    In Fury Road, Davidallen did a bit of refuel code in python.

    Basically, cars would start with a 'full tank' promotion and after X moves it went to 3/4 then 1/2 then 1/4 then empty.

    Special fuel trucks could be spawned to refuel immobile vehicles.

    He also had AI for this as well.

    There was also a promotion that removed the need for fuel.

    Might be worth looking at as a simpler system, or for ideas about this.

    I agree with the naysaying though, I think loading 'fuel' of what ever form will get really tedious.. Especially for things like short range traders that are just automated back and forth... I can already feel the headache. :D

    An alternate system might be something like 'range' where each 'fueled' unit can go for X turns before stopping/starving/exploding whatever.

    When a ship returns to a port it's refueled back to it's max turns.

    It could also be linked by certain buildings for certain units.

    So Port for ships, coal station for coal ships, petrol station for cars, etc.
     
  9. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Chieftain Supporter

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    There are lots of options for fuel. It could be free to move inside allied plots, Ships could be restricted to be within X plots of nearest port etc.

    However I don't really like the concept of fuel. The original idea with units, which brings a promotion is simple, both regarding gameplay and implementation. Fuel isn't really part of that concept meaning if we ever get fuel, it will be a totally different feature with different coding and stuff.

    If we look at gain vs coding time, I say something like fuel sounds really expensive and there are a whole lot of other features I would want to get finished before even considering something like that.
     
  10. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    There is also a distance rom borders movement mod somewhere in the Civ 4 section, I think I marked it once upon a time for fttw.

    I think fuel/range is only going to become important in the scope of WHM. It only really becomes valid with global exploration and modern warfare logistics.
     
  11. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    In pre modern times, armies traveled on their stomachs so fuel then would be food. Fuel would be a neat thing for perhaps a scenario, like a World War Mod. But, like Night said this would be a separate addition.
     
  12. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    I meant more from a gameplay persepective rather than a historical concept. The army needs food concept, I think would be more bundled up in the upkeep costs of armies.

    Armies could forage and take supplies from captured cities. The food supply situation would be more like a max units per tile issue (as in how many people can a stretch of land support)

    In Kmod it has a promotion that is applied to units in a stack when there are more than 10 units (or something like that) which gives a -10% strength.

    With slow moving armies, you generally just roll from one ctiy to the next, so you are going to find it difficult to 'out range' yourself logistically.

    It would only really become significant when trying to get from one continent to the next, where you need to build port settlements to reach from europe to africa and into the orient for example.

    Or with fast modern units that could conceivably strike 3 or 4 cities deep into the enemies territory. (or all over the world)
     

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