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Shocked, and suddently hating the patch

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Creepy Old Man, Dec 19, 2010.

  1. YosemiteMark

    YosemiteMark Chieftain

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    I also don't like how the game encourages a puppeting strategy, but to be fair the reason you puppet has little to do with keeping happiness up (although it does keep you from incurring courthouse costs, puppeting also causes you also lose control of what happiness buildings will be built). The major benefit for puppeting is to keep the culture cost of SP's down.
     
  2. Islet

    Islet Chieftain

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    Maybe you can still reasonably say this pre-patch. Post-patch, however, in addition to army effectiveness, growth and production cripples, rebels spawn to wreck your empire as well.

    So even if I ignore Culture Victory, all my victory options are also closed as well; I can't keep up with combat. I can't keep up with production. I can't keep up with Science. I can't keep up in GPT.

    In effect, a confirm lose.
     
  3. Rohili

    Rohili King

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    Then your problem is with puppeting, not with happiness. My main beef is with people making inaccurate, misleading or exaggerated criticisms about Civ. It is possible to have a large empire and still stay happy. You just don't like using the game mechanic that allows you to do so. In that case, don't criticise happiness; criticise puppets.
     
  4. Sneaks

    Sneaks Brooklyn Bum

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    I have made a rough alpha version AI mod on modhub right now (search WWGD) that among other things gets rid of any AI unhappy bonuses. I need some people to playtest to see if it makes any difference. You can find the thread on it for comments here. Might be a solution to at least some of the no happy building problems
     
  5. neptune2000

    neptune2000 Warlord

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    I think the argument is if you need to puppet that many cities, then the problem is happiness. Puppeting is just a poor solution to the problem.
     
  6. neptune2000

    neptune2000 Warlord

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    Looks interesting. I'd like to try it after I apply the big patch.
     
  7. Rohili

    Rohili King

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    Which is false. Nowhere did I claim that puppeting is a "solution" to unhappiness. My claim is that there is no unhappiness problem; and the example of my game with many puppets is provided as support for the claim that you can have large empires and still be happy (since many people have been claiming otherwise).

    Obviously, if I can stay happy with so many puppets, then a fortiori I can stay happy with few puppets (since there will be less unhappiness from population and city count).
     
  8. Islet

    Islet Chieftain

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    Think what he meant was you cannot maintain your 40-city "empire" with little to no puppets.

    You're saying that you can stay happy with few puppets with a proportional decrease in your empire size.

    This argument is simply not valid, as I could take it further and just keep my empire capped at 3-cities and voila! No happiness problem too!
     
  9. eric_

    eric_ Emperor

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    Exactly. Puppets cause *more* unhappiness than native cities or annexed cities + courthouses. In a recent game, I went on a conquering spree, happiness plunged (I intentionally pushed it well past what my empire could support so I could grab Cerro), and one thing that really helped me recover was to go to peace, pop GAs with my GGs, and then use the influx of cash to annex a bunch of cities and build courthouses.
     
  10. bryanw1995

    bryanw1995 Emperor

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    puppets are certainly harder to control, but their behavior is very predictable. just pillage all improvements other than tp's on hills before you conquer the city, then the city will only work the tp hills. barring that tp forest/plains. if the city is mostly grasslands but coastal it will actually prioritize watever over unimproved grass as well. with the new nerf to maritimes you can keep most puppets very small this way even with 4-5 maritime allies.
     
  11. DrewBledsoe

    DrewBledsoe Veteran QB

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    Having a look around to see if after 3 months or so, there's any more reason to buy CIV V (I still feel it's almost a duty)....

    So many thanks for this thread (and others) but this in particular. It really highlights two things:-

    1) Yet another utterly absymal game mechanic, and imo broken core game design. (Probably the game's final nail for me)

    and

    2) How on the Net, some people will always defend a point, often eloquently, even when they are totally and completely wrong:-

    "The Nazis were tyrants and responsible for the death of millions".........."No they couldn't have done that, they had the nicer uniforms"

    And a Merry Christmas to all ;)
     
  12. Rohili

    Rohili King

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    That doesn't make sense either, since your own cities do not generate any more unhappiness than puppet cities. You can have a 40-city empire with no puppets and still be happy. In fact, you will probably be happier since you have more control over what the cities build and get them to focus on happiness buildings.
     
  13. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    Best Solution

    1. Remove the -10 Unhappiness Production+Combat Penalties
    2. Make Rebels appear at -10 unhappiness
    3. Make rebels appear around Annexed(No courthouse) + Puppet Cities if there are any of those. (But base the number of rebels appearing on the total size of your empire)

    4. Give a breakdown in Diplomac of the Happiness effects of accepting cities.
     
  14. Islet

    Islet Chieftain

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    This is the one thing I find very dubious about your particular session.

    Besides your one instance, none have managed to replicate your 65 :c5happy: scenario, especially now that Happiness buildings cannot extend beyond Pop. size.

    Now, I don't know and don't want to know how you did it. Even if Happiness is not an issue, my impressions of this game have already been brought to a low (Buggy release, botched patches causing more CTDs) and I'm unlikely to go back to it.

    If Firaxis/2K or other developers/publishers think its alright to release games in a technically unstable state at full retail price, no number of patching can redeem its reputation in the customers' eyes.
     
  15. blind biker

    blind biker King

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    this!
     
  16. blind biker

    blind biker King

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    The citizens of Rome didn't mind at all while their legions conquered half the known world. In fact, quite the opposite seems to be true. Nor did many Germans disapprove of their victorious armies blitzing across central and western Europe. Nor did the Chinese Working Class mind as the mighty Red Army steamrolled across Tibet. Au contraire! And did the people on the streets of Constantinople (Istanbul) shed tears as the Ottoman Empire engulfed much of north Africa, all of the balkans, Persia and the red sea? Na-aahh.

    It may have sucked for those conquered, but the home contries' citizens were indifferent at worst, and over-the-top ecstatic at best.

    Hence: Civ V's happiness system is moronic, as stated above.
     
  17. tnick777

    tnick777 Warlord

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    I seriously hate how when Harun Al-Rashid declares war on me and I fend him off... He declares war on me again... I fend him off. And then just as he's about to declare war on me again, I declare war on him and destroy his empire taking every last city of his.

    Yet in global policy I'm considered a new villain...

    Something stupid is going on here.
     
  18. 7thsamurai

    7thsamurai Chieftain

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    I didn't read all 10 pages of this, so maybe someone mentioned a similar idea-but when I go to war I jot down the cities I want(with luxuries, location closer to my empire, etc) in the even they offer a peace treaty, and I dont accept the crap ones.

    Once is enough for that mistake.
     
  19. 7thsamurai

    7thsamurai Chieftain

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    well said. The bugs are ridiculous. I made it all the way to turn 352 this time before my huge map crashed. An improvement to be sure, but still crap. I'd like to know the story behind the lead developer leaving. 2K has sucked at gaming for an entire decade now. Their sports games were inferior going back that far. Had I known they bought firaxis I probably wouldnt have bought this game.
     
  20. PawelS

    PawelS Ancient Druid

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    The happiness system was already discussed to death. My opinion is that if you want to be able to have a big empire without the need to build appropriate buildings and wonders, choose right policies, acquire luxury resources etc., if you think you should be able to conquer everything in sight and don't have any problems with keeping the empire happy, you're asking for a "dumbed down" version of the game. I think there should be something that keeps you from getting too big too early, in Civ4 is was the city upkeep costs, in Civ5 it's happiness.

    I generally like how the "moronic" happiness system limits expansion, but I think it should penalize the number of cities more, and the number of citizens less, so you won't be too afraid to let your cities grow.
     

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