Shoshone

[graltok]

They didn't have a thread and the question I have is about the Pathfinder ability of choosing the benefit when uncovering an ancient ruins.

I am trying to play them on Deity (hear it's a safe start), what are the rule behind the uncovering ability? Deity is about min maxing and not doing mistake you can avoid so to abuse this ability I want to know the mecanic behind it.

The only fact I know is that (on Epic) you can get the religion bonus starting turn 20 or something.

I'm guessing when you choose an option it doesn't let you choose it after X turn or X new ancient ruins uncovered.

Thank you

 

[Funak]

I think it's 20 turns in standard as well before you're able to pick the faith reward. After you've founded a pantheon you're able to get a bigger faith reward (might be turn dependent as well, but I don't think so).

For taking the same reward twice, you need 2 (I think, might be 3) different choices in between. So you could go Culture, Production, Gold, Culture if you want to.

 

[graltok]

Thanks Funak!

 

[dschur]

I never played Shoshone much in vanilla, but have been enjoying them a great deal in the past few games. I am not sure if it is a luck thing, but I have found they seem borderline OP, at least in Marathon/Prince. I know I should probably step up a notch on difficulty, but I enjoy building and expanding too much to be forced into the sort of Starcraft rush that seems needed to overcome the AI cheats.

Thoughts:
Getting to pick the bonus is crazy good. A free tech at marathon speed is "yuuuge"
-Scouts are pretty useful in most starts anyway, so having a warrior equivalent scout is pretty powerful. Almost no way I can see picking Warrior over Pathfinder. Upgrading to Compound Bow is almost overkill. With the terrain mobility a couple of these allows for some early warring to keep your space secure, and cripple your neighbors so bad they become complete non-issues.
- Encampments are one of the best early improvements it seems, and stay useful for a very long time.
- Extra tiles on new cities makes for incredible expansion power, especially with how well it optimizes the tile buys.

Yes, Shoshone seems to get everything front-loaded, but honestly a strong beginning seems to set you up so well that lacking future era UU's is not a penalty.

Do I just have to bite the bullet and step up difficulty? Or is the Marathon speed what is helping to crush the AI. All the advantages humans have seem buffed by the slower speeds

 

[DarkZero]

Do I just have to bite the bullet and step up difficulty? Or is the Marathon speed what is helping to crush the AI. All the advantages humans have seem buffed by the slower speeds

It is just like you said, the more frontloaded the bonus the stronger it is on slower speeds, I think epic speed is the best speed to play for slower games, the ai just cant peform on marathon, it lacks the huge long term planing the human has.

 

[notque]

The fact the scouting bonuses can't happen if the pathfinder is upgraded to comp bow makes the decision much more interesting. I just played a shoshone game and did my normal, no thinking choice path.. Pop upgrade, Culture, Comp Bow, Pop Upgrade

And upgrading them to comp bows that early was a negative for additional scouting. They were getting experience, but not the kind I wanted at that time. So it's nice to have to think about it a little bit.

 

[Funak]

Am I the only one who think the pathfinder should be dropped down to 45 hammers? I know it is fairly strong, but it feels kinda weird to have it more expensive than both the scout and the warrior, if only by 5 hammers.

 

[notque]

Am I the only one who think the path-finder should be dropped down to 45 hammers? I know it is fairly strong, but it feels kinda weird to have it more expensive than both the scout and the warrior, if only by 5 hammers.

The pathfinders used to be much stronger because there were good choices, and very bad choices from ruins.

Now there are good choices, and good choices, so the pathfinder isn't anywhere near as good. It doesn't "really" matter all that much what you get outside of deciding to finally upgrade them to comp bows, and getting the pop bonus.

I think dropping them to lower hammers is one answer, but I'd rather they were just better. If they started with +1 visibility, that would be interesting.

 

[Funak]

The pathfinders used to be much stronger because there were good choices, and very bad choices from ruins.

Now there are good choices, and good choices, so the pathfinder isn't anywhere near as good. It doesn't "really" matter all that much what you get outside of deciding to finally upgrade them to comp bows, and getting the pop bonus.

I think dropping them to lower hammers is one answer, but I'd rather they were just better. If they started with +1 visibility, that would be interesting.

I actually still think they are really good, and I definitely don't think Shoshone needs a buff, in fact a lot of people have been complaining about them being too strong (I don't agree with that either however), but I dislike the extra 5 hammer cost on the pathfinder, feels unnecessary.

 

[notque]

I'm not saying they aren't good, I'm only saying it was a nerf to make all the choices in ruins good.

 

[Funak]

I'm not saying they aren't good, I'm only saying it was a nerf to make all the choices in ruins good.

Some choices are clearly better, production, gold, tech, than others, experience, map.

 

[notque]

Fair point, and you are allowed to stack your favorite ones to do something in particular. Like stacking production to rush a wonder.

 

[Funak]

Fair point, and you are allowed to stack your favorite ones to do something in particular. Like stacking production to rush a wonder.

Yeah, or use your first ruin to get another pathfinder out. You can also, if you find two ruins on the same turn, pick gold from the first one, rush a shrine and a monument, pick production from the other one and get both the buildings down.

There is also crazy snowball value in getting culture from your first ruin, just because of how most opener policies work.

 

[Aldebaran1997]

Is there any reason why Encampment isn't named Tipi? It's quite inconvenient when I'm modifying the codes.

And I think Shoshone is little too weak now. (not as weak as Iroquois but still.)

 

[CrazyG]

I'd like to see Shoshone always get the max (or at least a relatively larger amount) of gold when picking gold ruins. I don't find them weak though, great early game and tough to invade.

 

[tu_79]

It seems that the way to go for Shoshone is to expand fast and then hold position, preferably land based. The goody huts give techs, upgrades, pop, and whatever yield you need more. The extra tiles on settling saves the hammers for the monolith for a while. The Tipi is not the best unique improvement out there, it doesn't work well in Communitas map (too many resources), and half of its appeal is the improved defense.

Somehow I can't make it work properly. It's either I overexpand, or I find it difficult to take on my first neighbours. If I turtle, then it's rare that anyone declares war on me. If I am aggressive, then I use to do most of my fights in enemy territory. I can't manage to be passive-aggressive.

 

[Workerspam]

Shoshone seem to be tailor made for quick starts; I've never felt them to be underpowered on Emperor and am finding them more than adequate on Immortal. The cultural ruins nerf slows their start down a bit but they can still get rolling early. Encampments are key; since they grant food, production, and culture you can postpone many of the normal infrastructure buildings (monuments, granaries, etc) in favor of churning out shrines, workers, units, walls, and settlers. Horsemen are on the same tech as Encampments and your landgrab pretty much ensures you can snag at least one horse tile. You should be able to plant 3-4 cities, have an early mounted army, and a worker for each city as early or earlier than just about any other civ. From there you can continue expanding peacefully or war on those who encroach on your ancestral lands as situations dictate.

I also try to beeline embarkment when possible; island ruins are valuable enough to usually make it worthwhile.

 

[Funak]

Haven't actually played the Shoshone since culture from ruins was nerfed. That was kinda major I guess, being able to guarantee having one polity at turn 4 or 5.

 

[infidel88]

Like many mentioned, with goody hut nerfs, Pathfinders are barely mediocre. On most maps you can grab up to 6 early huts, which translates to 2 techs, some hammers, 1 pop, some culture/gold. That's not that much different than random civ. They have tightest opportunity window out of all unique units and don't even excel in it.
What I would like to see is some unique mechanic for them. Throwing just some ideas:
- Pathfinders function as living landmarks, generating culture depending on era;
- Maybe getting 1xp per turn without cap;
- Generating culture/faith on kill;
- Having unique upgrade path, when instead of upgrading to explorer they just upgrade to better and stronger Pathfinders. Upgrade comes every era;
- Ability to generate culture/faith/food/GG points while fortified on encampments;

Right now Shoshone are fun for 25 turns. They are not bad, grabbing extra tiles is huge in the early game and going progress Shosho seems smart and encampment is awesome. But it's kind of generic to me.

 

[Aldebaran1997]

Like many mentioned, with goody hut nerfs, Pathfinders are barely mediocre. On most maps you can grab up to 6 early huts, which translates to 2 techs, some hammers, 1 pop, some culture/gold. That's not that much different than random civ. They have tightest opportunity window out of all unique units and don't even excel in it.
What I would like to see is some unique mechanic for them. Throwing just some ideas:
- Pathfinders function as living landmarks, generating culture depending on era;
- Maybe getting 1xp per turn without cap;
- Generating culture/faith on kill;
- Having unique upgrade path, when instead of upgrading to explorer they just upgrade to better and stronger Pathfinders. Upgrade comes every era;
- Ability to generate culture/faith/food/GG points while fortified on encampments;

Right now Shoshone are fun for 25 turns. They are not bad, grabbing extra tiles is huge in the early game and going progress Shosho seems smart and encampment is awesome. But it's kind of generic to me.

I didn't focus on the balance issue (I really want to know why Encampment isn't named Tipi), but I like your last suggestion if there is some adjustment!