[R&F] Should be England be "Un-Nerfed"?

Should England receive a free melee unit after conquering a city not on it's home continent?

  • No, the March 2018 patch got it right. Free melee unit on city settle only.

    Votes: 32 18.0%
  • Yes, but only once per city, so no "free city farming"

    Votes: 129 72.5%
  • Yes, every time the conquer a city, just like it was before the March 2018 patch

    Votes: 17 9.6%

  • Total voters
    178
What exactly is meant by "trade stacking"? Is this referring to the old practice of getting 2 trade routes per city by having a commercial hub AND harbor?

Good question! I'm a bit confused over why people feel England had an ongoing advantage in that area, after only the first built of the two gave a trade route.

Megabearsfan, yes trade stacking was getting two trade routes for the two districts in the same city.

Nzcamel, IIRC for a while England was still able to stack trade routes even after the change that made it impossible for everyone else, it was considered to be an additional unique bonus of the RND, but they changed it a while back. I'm not sure what patch it was, you'd possibly be able to find out by going back and checking the notes for each one.
 
That was pretty O.P.
 
...and since they've now nerfed a civ that was already borderline bad, they should really add the trade stacking back, especially since it fits the British theme so nicely for Victoria.
 
I don't think bringing back trade route stacking is the way forward. It would be fairly fiddly given you'd have to still build lighthouse and markets, and given that, it still wouldn't be a strong as it was.

Would this work for Vicky / England?
  • Victoria, Leader Ability, 'Pax Britannia'. Receive a 20% discount on purchasing melee units with gold and additional 10% discount upgrading melee units. Unlock Redcoat unit at Military Science. RND gives +2 additional gold when built in a city on a foreign continent.

  • England, Unique Ability, 'British Museum'. Remains as is.

  • England, Unique Unit, 'Sea Dog'. Remains as is.

  • Royal Navy Dockyard. Cost remains the same. Grants an additional +1 Great Admiral points, +1 movement to all naval units built or upgraded in a city with this district, +4 loyalty if built in a city on a foreign continent (no additional loyalty from being built on your home continent). You receive an additional +1 trade route for each continent that you have at least one Royal Navy Dockyard (including your home continent), up to a maximum of +3 additional trade routes.
I also think a small buff to colonial cities generally would be helpful. e.g. +1 gold from improved luxuries on foreign continents and / or one or two Eurekas or Inspirations are having x cities on a foreign continent and / or Lighthouse and Markets provide +2 gold if on a foreign continent.
 
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They should revert it but address the free city farming. Or, if not, give England something else instead...

They should just get rid of the free units and just make Redcoats replace Musketmen, they would need a combat strength reduction to 60, that would allow timing pushes. The Redcoats +10 combat strength on foreign continents already represents England's colonial wars / expansion.
 
Maybe after hitting England with the nerf bat so hard, and so repeatedly, Firaxis will revamp Vicky completely (see above) and then give England an alternate leader to make good...?

It would be very cool having both Vicky and, say, Elizabeth in the same game...

eg:

Queen Elizabeth, Leader Ability, ‘England Rules the Sea’. Receive a random tech boost whenever you discover a natural wonder or each time you settle on a new continent. Receive the “Ship of the Line” unit. Replaces Frigate. +1 sight, and receives additional +2 ranged and melee attack when adjacent to a Great Admiral.
 
Queen Elizabeth, Leader Ability, ‘England Rules the Sea’. Receive a random tech boost whenever you discover a natural wonder or each time you settle on a new continent. Receive the “Ship of the Line” unit. Replaces Frigate. +1 sight, and receives additional +2 ranged and melee attack when adjacent to a Great Admiral.

Except England didn't rule the seas in Elizabeth's day. The wrecking of the Spanish Armada certainly helped towards that end; but no...you really need a different LA for Elizabeth.

She could have some good religious bonus as it was she rather than her father who set up the Anglican church proper; which was no small feat in the face of the hostile Catholic church. Culture bonuses could also be appropriate given Shakespeare's work happening in her time.
 
That’s a very good point. Although I think equally Elizabeth did invest heavily in her Royal Navy.

I think the bigger problem with my idea is actually that Ships of the Line came after Elizabeth - oops. Lizzie’s unique unit is of course the Sea Dog.

Maybe England should get the Ship of the Line or Dreadnaught as its unique unit. Elizabeth would then get the Sea Dog as part of her Leader Ability. I think JFD has a mod along those lines already.

So maybe Elizabeth LA is “Heart and Stomach of a King”, and she gets culture from Naval kills and the Sea Dog.

A religion angle would also be cool, although I’ve no idea what that would be or how it would synergise with England’s existing abilities.

In any event, I really do hope England gets some love from Firaxis at some point. It’s overdue.
 
I voted for the second option. It wouldn't be too hard to say this: "Pax Britannica- Receive a free melee unit when settling a city on another continent, or by conquering a city on another continent from another major Civ or city-state. Melee Unit becomes a Redcoat in the Industrial Era. Unlocks the Redcoat UU.

I'm guessing there was so much Scottish nationalism from this expansion they decided to do this to England. :mischief:
 
That’s a very good point. Although I think equally Elizabeth did invest heavily in her Royal Navy.
I think the bigger problem with my idea is actually that Ships of the Line came after Elizabeth - oops. Lizzie’s unique unit is of course the Sea Dog.
Maybe England should get the Ship of the Line or Dreadnaught as its unique unit. Elizabeth would then get the Sea Dog as part of her Leader Ability. I think JFD has a mod along those lines already.
So maybe Elizabeth LA is “Heart and Stomach of a King”, and she gets culture from Naval kills and the Sea Dog.
A religion angle would also be cool, although I’ve no idea what that would be or how it would synergise with England’s existing abilities.
In any event, I really do hope England gets some love from Firaxis at some point. It’s overdue.

Liz I was a tough cookie, but military triumph isn't what I would first associate with her reign. The aforementioned Armada was less to do with English brilliance, and more to do with the weather. It is in religion and culture that her abilities should be based. Her reforms to the church structure in England were pretty tolerant for her day which in part (to me) allowed a tolerance of thinking and belief to permeate England faster than it did elsewhere in Europe, allowing for a growth in culture and science.
 
How about this for England?

First, re-work England and Victoria
  • Victoria, Leader Ability, 'Pax Britannia'. Receive a 20% discount on purchasing melee units with gold and additional 10% discount upgrading melee units. Melee units fighting on foreign continents earn experience 20% faster. Unlock the Redcoat unique unit at Military Science.

  • England, Unique Ability, 'British Museum'. Remains as is.

  • England, Unique Unit. Replace the Sea Dog with 'Ship of the Line'. England’s Ship of the Line is a Frigate replacement. It receives +1 sight, +5 defensive melee strength, and (when adjacent to a Great Admiral) additional +5 ranged attack. Production, gold and maintenance costs are the same as a Frigate.

  • Royal Navy Dockyard. Cost remains the same. Grants an additional +1 Great Admiral points, +1 movement to all naval units built or upgraded in a city with this district, and +2 gold and +4 loyalty if built in a city on a foreign continent (no additional loyalty from being built on your home continent). You receive an additional +1 trade route for each continent that you have at least one Royal Navy Dockyard (including your home continent), up to a maximum of +3 additional trade routes.
Second, give England Queen Elizabeth I as an alternate leader.
  • Queen Elizabeth (Alternate Leader, England). Leader Ability, “Video et Taceo”. All cities with the same majority religion as your capital receive +2 loyalty (your capital always receives +2 loyalty). Unlock spies at Castles. All Enemy Spies operate at 1 level lower in your cities. Receive the 'Sea Dog' unique unit, which replaces the Privateer.
Third, boost continents and sea trade generally.
  • All civilizations receive an additional +1 gold from improved luxuries on a foreign continent.

  • Trade between two cities with harbours always creates a trading post in both cities.

  • Foreign trade where the trader passes over any ocean tiles always provides an additional +1 gold to the originating city.

That's..., ah,... not too much to ask for, is it...?
 
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I finished a R&F England game after release, and I’m of the opinion that they’re for sure one of the bottom tier Civs after the expansion reworked them. Heck, with this particular change to Pax Britannica, they might just be the worst Civ in the game. Let’s break down why.

British Museum is pretty good, but the fact it only applies to Archeological Museums is a bit underwhelming. The free double themeing garners quite a bit of tourism, but it’s not necessarily as good a late game culture boost as America has, or being a consistently strong culture boost all game like Greece, Kongo, or Egypt. It’s just ok.

England’s unique units are kind of underwhelming. For the archetypical Naval Civ, the Sea Dog isn’t all that powerful. It’s no more stronger than the regular Privateer, and it’s unique ability only works some of the time. The Redcoat is strong, but it’s severely limited by its production; it’s a huge investment to build these things before just upgrading them into infantry anyways. However, there is - or at least was - a way around that limitation, but I’ll get into that later. Overall, the unique units available to England leave a lot to be desired, and don’t make them strong enough by their own merits (like Sumeria, Nubia, and the Aztec).

The RND was the main draw to play England, and it largely still is. A half-cost harbor is a useful bonus, and it still is. The major appeal, however, of the district was that it gave you a trade route while also receiving the trade route from the commercial hub in the same city. This gave England the unique niche of possessing a huge trade network, which could garner you a wide assortment of yields, depending on your trade route focus. That, however, is now gone due to the RND’s rework. It still gives you the same adjacency bonus from settling on a different continent, but it now also gives bonus loyalty. This isn’t very useful. The RND (and consequentially, the loyalty) aren’t going to be built quickly enough in a newly settled city that will gave loyalty pressure on it to be useful. And the bonuses for settling on another continent aren’t all that useful, since Civ as a game does not lend itself very well towards colonization. The crazy yields that you can get via the Free Inquiry golden age dedication are worth mentioning, as I have seen some wild science & production bonuses. However, it’s also worth mentioning that every Civ can make use of this strat, and the extra boost England gets out of it only happens some of the time, and it requires you to force it in an unconventional game style. So the RND went from one of the coolest unique districts to essentially a glorified half-cost harbor, which is disappointing to say the least.

England did have an interesting late-game expansionist twist, and that was through Pax Britannica. Thanks to the settling and conquest of other cities, England received a free Melee unit. This includes the Redcoat, so England could start warmongering after researching military science and receive free Redcoats, snowballing into an unstoppable force for the era. However, thanks to a nerf (I am aware that Firaxis flagged it as a bugfix, but the original wording was for settling or conquering, so I consider it a nerf), England no longer receives the bonus from conquering cities. So this not only removes the second of England’s three compelling uniques (the last remaining being British Museum), and now leaves Pax Britannica as a mediocre ability that doesn’t really work within the context of Civ, but also removes a lot of the utility of the Redcoat. So this one nerf actually hurts England quite a bit.

So, where does this leave England now? In my opinion, in quite a rough space. In vanilla, England was by no means a great Civ, but they were solidly mid-tier. They held a lot of unique niches that no other Civ did, and while they weren’t game breaking like Sumeria, they were strong and fun to play with. Now, those niches are either gone, or are transformed into new niches that are weak and don’t necessarily work within Civ as a game. England in their current state are a bottom-tier Civ, and worst yet, they’re very boring to play.

So how do we fix this? Well for one, you could give Pax Britannica back the bonus for conquering cities. I also wouldn’t change British Museum & the Redcoat, as those uniques are fine. (Well, I mean you could change British Museum to a stronger and maybe more “English” bonus, but for simplicity’s sake let’s leave the uniques that are fine alone. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.) I would personally rework the RND, as its current bonuses are just not that useful. You could give it back it’s extra trade route, give it some special adjacency bonus for being next to a city center (beyond what already exists), or something, because it just simply isn’t good enough now. I might also change the Sea Dog, because it and the movement speed from the RND just isn’t enough to sell England as a dominating naval force. You could remove it and replace it with a Ship of the Line as a unique frigate, to dominate the seas (yes, there are plenty of unique frigates, but the SotL could definitely distinguish itself amongst the others). This would also open up the Sea Dog as a unique for Elizabeth I, should she be added as a unique leader later on.

Anyways, sorry for the rant/blog, I’m just disappointed in how hard England’s been nerfed for no reason other than to orient it towards a game that doesn’t really work all that well.
 
@Jewelrunna, I couldn't agree more.

The nerfs to England are not just about reducing their power level. The real problem is the changes have reduced how much fun England is.

I also agree that, more generally, England just don't seem as powerful as a Naval Civ anymore because of so many Civs now getting unique Frigates (already a very powerful unit) and other bonuses. I think there was also a bug previously that if you upgraded an English vessel then it lost it's +1 movement. I don't know if that's been fixed, but that's why I said above the RND should grant "+1 movement to all naval units built or upgraded in a city with this district".

I really agree with moving the Sea Dog to an alternate leader like Elizabeth I. (I also wonder if maybe Sea Dogs would be better giving culture from kills rather than capturing units.) If the Sea Dog was moved, then Ship of the Line would be a good new Unique Unit for England. Another possibility would be the Dreadnaught, perhaps replacing the Battleship (e.g. see here).
 
I have to say as an Anglophile that the British Museum unique ability really annoys me. There are tons other abilities they could’ve given England to reflect its history, of which archaeology was a small part.

I think they should change the ability to ‘Legacy of Westminster’:

‘Can change policies at any time without incurring the usual gold penalty.’
 
Trade route stacking doesn't fit R&F, where number of trade routes was heavily cut. Some other bonuses are clearly needed, though:
- Military unit for conquering non-free city. That was proposed by others and it's the most logical solution.
- Maybe some bonuses for trade routes in cities with RND. That could be a good replacement for additional trade routes. Quality over quantity.
 
I have to say as an Anglophile that the British Museum unique ability really annoys me. There are tons other abilities they could’ve given England to reflect its history, of which archaeology was a small part.

I think they should change the ability to ‘Legacy of Westminster’:

‘Can change policies at any time without incurring the usual gold penalty.’
I would call it Unwritten Constitution, but that may be an American-centric name?
 
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