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Should chopping be toned down?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by JWJ, Feb 5, 2006.

  1. Yzen Danek

    Yzen Danek Warlord

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    This is a silly discussion.

    You people are saying that a central game mechanic is 'overpowered.'

    You're right only that it's much harder to win without the forest chopping worker ability.

    It's even more difficult to win without using the cottage improvement, or the mine improvement, or the road improvement.

    Are these similarly overpowered? I don't see any of you arguing that cottages are so vastly overpowered that they relegate you to a single type of gameplay, and yet I would say that you would be hard-pressed to come up with a good sample of wins on high difficulties that didn't make use of cottages. Even moreso for roads. Clearly roads are overpowered; I can never win without them. I would really like to be able to play a civilization that never invents the wheel, but every game I'm forced into it.

    Chopping forests is a central game element, like any other improvement. It's an advantage that is shared by players and AI alike. Does it affect the opening? Yes, it can be decisive. So is starting next to two gold mines and two food sources.
     
  2. Sidhe

    Sidhe Deity

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    Well I would have no problem with leaving it the way it is in SP but in MP India is a powerhouse with this and the only effective way to keep up early on is to chop, of course if you overdo it you'll get punished later but having 3 settlers out to one settler without chopping for workers/settlers is pretty daming, fine if everyone knows this but overpowered otherwise and also completely unrealistic why is having sixty tonnes of wood going to help build a new city? You move there you chose somewhere with alot of local resources and you build a city?
     
  3. Yzen Danek

    Yzen Danek Warlord

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    And then your Indian player who was planning on chopping as their advantage starts on an island with room for four cities but only 3 forests and a ton of floodplains and grasslands, and they're screwed.

    Seriously, all these 'overpowered' mechanics, from chopping to the roman UU, have limitations. If players consistently choose to circumvent those limitations by always choosing map types and game settings which play into their pre-determined strategies, and then just claim 'bad luck' and quit when the map they're given doesn't allow them to execute the plan, then of course we don't get an accurate representation of the relative power of those gameplay mechanics.

    Chopping is the right mechanic to use when you're given a forest-heavy start, just as building Praetorians is the right mechanic to use when you have access to Iron as Rome, just as researching Fishing and Mining first is the right mechanic to use when you start with seafood and gold resources in your capital radius, just as settling a plains hill is the right mechanic to use if you're given a choice between two otherwise similar starting locales.
     
  4. gunkulator

    gunkulator Emperor

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    in SP, forest chopping amounts to a human-only exploit since the AI doesn't do it. It's like having a powerful unit or civic that the AI can't have.

    In MP, forest chop turns the game into a lottery. If you get 8 trees around your capital - you win. Start in the desert - you lose.

    Too unbalancing, IMHO. Yet another thing that wasn't broken in Civ3 that they "fixed" in Civ4.
     
  5. royfurr

    royfurr "Klotzen, nicht Kleckern"

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    "Well the major problem with that solution is detection and enforcement. How do you know how many forests a certain player started off with at his capitol / city? There is no global message that is sent whenever a player chops down a forest. This idea would be extremely hard to enforce and few people like to be told how to play a game.

    I'm not sure how many multiplayer games you've played but I think this suggestion is off base ..."

    @Bezurn - Your probably right about this; and yes, I am not a MP, I've always stuck with SP. I was thinking of the, whats it called, the pitboss, being able to monitor this kind of thing, or other players simply noticing, but of course players wouldn't be able to see into your empire to notice whats going on so early on. And its futilte to expect everyone to simply be honest and use an honor code type apporach. Oh well. So I agree that a setting for MP could be good. For SP, especially if it could be adjusted (hammers/chop rate) rather than a simple on/off, at least it would allow people who don't like it to tone it down. People could adjust it as they wished depending on the game difficulty desired and their playing perference. But I hope Firaxis doesn't "axe" the chop completely. Or weaken it to uselessness.

    As one poster voiced, chopping is just one technique amonst many, like using roads or building chariots or swordsmen. There are later game consequences, especially if one overdoes it. I agree its more of an issue in MP, so if they patch this, let it apply to MP. IF they do apply it to SP, then make it customizable ... or at an absolute minimum, an on/off toggle so we can individually decide for ourselves if we want to allow it or not.

    Just my 2 cents worth.
     
  6. PopTarts

    PopTarts Chieftain

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    From the manual in the collector's edition, on page 176, 2nd to the last paragraph. It's in the "afterwords" section by Soren Johnson.

    Page 59 in the same manual states the same thing in my manual, so I assume you have the same one I do.
     
  7. DaviddesJ

    DaviddesJ Deity

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    Page 176 doesn't say what you claim it does. Read message #36 in this thread.
     
  8. Sidhe

    Sidhe Deity

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    People seem to have forgotten that the AI chops too, it's just a bit stupid about when it does it. Quitting because you got map screwed in the MP's i play is liable to get you banned from playing any more.
     
  9. microbe

    microbe Cascaded Mansion

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    very simple: no chopping outside of borders.
     
  10. jaythewise

    jaythewise Chieftain

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    chopping affects only wonders - city improvements would fix the issue...

    remember when you thought india had the lamest civ in the game, untill you got into chopping and your like hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

    i could crush any fools with all these trees lol
     
  11. civzombie

    civzombie Prince

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    "very simple: no chopping outside of borders."

    Microbe - I read some 1.52 release notes that indicated that your quoted rule was added.

    Are you sure this still needs to be fixed?
     
  12. Roland Johansen

    Roland Johansen Deity

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    No chopping outside of borders would not be the rule that I would like to see. There will still be a massive production from forests, 30 shields per tile is just too much. It will still make the beeline towards bronze working the way to go to stimulate the early growth. The forests around the capital are enough to make this worthwhile. The only reason to change it in such a way is to make the changes of the patch somewhat less obvious so that less people complain about their favourite tactic being removed. And actually for the most part it isn't removed. The forests far from your city (more than distance 3) are less profitable with the current rules and thus not the main reason why this tactic is overpowered.

    I'm still wondering why they decided to let the chopping of forests in this version of civ give you 30 production, while in previous versions it was 0, 0 and 10. It's not that all other production values went up in a similar way. Production levels in civ4 are probably even a bit lower than in civ3, making the production from forests stand out even more.
    I personally think that it was done to make the early parts of civ4 be a bit more active in multiplayer. Getting your workers out and chopping is important in multiplayer and protecting them against the other human players is also important. It's the only way to do a military rush or protect yourself from falling victim to a military rush. And fast multiplayer games are all about rushing and protecting yourself against rushers. I think that it was done to make the online game a quick battle game. But actually, it has become a game of who has the most forests to chop in his/her neighbourhood.
     
  13. logical_psycho

    logical_psycho Prince

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    If chopping is the only way to get a lead, then yeah it should be toned down. I never chop, so I might as well not go into mp games with you guys. I feel like I'm exploiting the game's weak points, like almost cheating, when chopping. Computer opponents obviously don't chop to get boosts in performance.
     
  14. BenniusCaesar

    BenniusCaesar Warlord

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    I've only played on moderate difficulty levels so far and chopping does make it easy. But I would have expected that on the higher difficulties chopping would be less viable due to health concerns. So I don't think it should be changed.

    Everyone seems to be talking about multiplayer. Maybe a rule change could happen for multiplayer. But then again, everyone gets the same advantage so what's the big deal?

    (Please note, I only play the computer so there may be a big deal I don't know about!)
     
  15. BenniusCaesar

    BenniusCaesar Warlord

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    But on high difficulty levels they get other bonuses and cheats. The chopping method actually requires you to be more considered by balancing chopping for a bonus in production versus lost health later on.
     
  16. DaviddesJ

    DaviddesJ Deity

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    Not really. Even if you chop all of your trees, happiness is usually a tighter constraint than health, through the early part of the game. And by the time you get Monarchy and can increase happiness through garrisons, the marginal value of the forests for raising health is pretty insignificant.

    Health doesn't seem to be all that important, as evidenced by the low value that almost everyone puts on the Expansive trait.
     

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