Should Elizabeth II lead England in Civ 7?

Should Elizabeth II lead England in Civ 7?

  • Yes

    Votes: 8 22.9%
  • No

    Votes: 27 77.1%

  • Total voters
    35
While she may be better known due to recency bias (ie, she's been on the news), the suggestion that Elizabeth II is more iconic than Elizabeth I is far from sustinable.

The suggestion that the British Empire should have retained its 1930s situation - rule over India, over Africa, over colonies whose people did not desire British rule - is beyond ghoulish, and unworthy of anyone with a shred of decency.
 
The original Elizabeth is far less iconic than the Queen (RIP) was.
To the general public, probably so. Considering she's been the queen for most, or all of, their lifetime I wonder how many could even name another? :mischief:
 
While she may be better known due to recency bias (ie, she's been on the news), the suggestion that Elizabeth II is more iconic than Elizabeth I is far from sustinable.
She absolutely is more iconic, because she lived in the age of mass media, and she, and her family, were huge celebrities, just like Mandela is more iconic than Dingaan or Ketchwayo were.
The suggestion that the British Empire should have retained its 1930s situation - rule over India, over Africa, over colonies whose people did not desire British rule - is beyond ghoulish, and unworthy of anyone with a shred of decency.
Most people, even in democracies, do not desire to be ruled by their current leaders. Look at the approval ratings for the current US President and his predecessor...both are more disapproved than approved. (I know political discussion is frowned upon, so let's just leave it at that, I don't want to get into a discussion of modern political figures, which is why I didn't reference either president by name, but my point about most people not approving of their leaders even in a democracy stands.)
The loss of the colonial empires was a deeply humiliating thing for the European colonial powers, one they have never truly recovered from.
There could have always been some tweaking to the imperial system to give locals some more say, while maintaining colonial rule, which, BTW, only ended because the World Wars bankrupted the colonial powers.

To the general public, probably so. Considering she's been the queen for most, or all of, their lifetime I wonder how many could even name another? :mischief:
Most could probably name Victoria, and probably the Queen Mother if they remember when she was alive (she was technically a Queen, too...)
 
Most could probably name Victoria, and probably the Queen Mother if they remember when she was alive (she was technically a Queen, too...)
Maybe should have said the general American public.
 
Even most Americans probably know who Queen Victoria was.
(should note that my "Macedon" location tag is a joke to tie in with the Alexander the Great getup)

Even before Civ got me into history, this was the case (and is the case for my immediate family), mainly due to passing mentions of "the Victorian Era" in regards to British culture and the status of their empire... and for myself, thanks to media portrayals of her like in Civ VI.

As for the Queen Mother, I'm not familiar with that title :undecide:

(I did a quick Google search to figure it out)
 
But Gandhi is the only Indian leader who is well known in the West, and he's a Civ staple. What would the real benefit be of replacing a well-known figurehead who was an iconic representative of their nation with a virtually unknown figure simply because they actually governed? FDR didn't do much actual ruling, either (ill, incapacitated, US Presidents don't have that much power anyway, most power is with the Supreme Court or the Congress/Senate).
You could replace Wilhelmina with William of Orange (also somewhat of a Civ staple, and he had a cool beard), and Victoria/Elizabeth with Churchill (All the other British leaders with actual power are too recent [i.e. Boris], too obscure [i.e. Wilson], too controversial [i.e Thatcher], too infamous [i.e. Chamberlain], too foreign [i.e. William the Bastard], or too mythological [i.e. Arthur]).
So you would have essentially replaced two female leaders with male leaders, at a time when it seems Civ wants more female leaders, which would inevitably lead to relatively obscure female leaders being chosen (like the Portuguese Queen in Civ V)
So I don't really want to replace beloved, iconic female monarchs with lesser known males who had actual power if it means that other civs have a more iconic/important male leader replaced with a lesser known female leader for gender equality.
TLDR: please keep Elizabeth/Victoria as the British leader

Attlee, Eden, and Macmillan are not nearly famous enough.
You seem to downplay or understate the level of historical knowledge and education that is typical of the Civ player base down to the same level as the average American public. Most Civ players tend to go into the game with a higher than average knowledge of, and interest in, history and the other social sciences, and don't need leaders who are SO famous and iconic they'd be known to a American, "couch potato," to be able or valid to be considered in Civ iterations. The statement is slightly offensive to the player base, in fact.
Most people, even in democracies, do not desire to be ruled by their current leaders.
Whilst you're speaking for, "people," in general presumptuously, outside downplaying the education and knowledge of Civ player, who do you, "declare," people want to be ruled by? Secret Illumanatic councils?
 
You seem to downplay or understate the level of historical knowledge and education that is typical of the Civ player base down to the same level as the average American public. Most Civ players tend to go into the game with a higher than average knowledge of, and interest in, history and the other social sciences, and don't need leaders who are SO famous and iconic they'd be known to a American, "couch potato," to be able or valid to be considered in Civ iterations. The statement is slightly offensive to the player base, in fact.

Whilst you're speaking for, "people," in general presumptuously, outside downplaying the education and knowledge of Civ player, who do you, "declare," people want to be ruled by? Secret Illumanatic councils?
I'm just saying that the British Empire was mostly a good thing, even if it wasn't the preferred leader of many of its subjects, because even democratic governments are often not the preferred leaders of many of their "citizens".
(should note that my "Macedon" location tag is a joke to tie in with the Alexander the Great getup)

Even before Civ got me into history, this was the case (and is the case for my immediate family), mainly due to passing mentions of "the Victorian Era" in regards to British culture and the status of their empire... and for myself, thanks to media portrayals of her like in Civ VI.

As for the Queen Mother, I'm not familiar with that title :undecide:

(I did a quick Google search to figure it out)
The Queen Mother was like an older version of the Queen.
 
I'm just saying that the British Empire was mostly a good thing, even if it wasn't the preferred leader of many of its subjects, because even democratic governments are often not the preferred leaders of many of their "citizens".
This response is meant for Evie's post, not mine, yes?
 
No Elizabeth II. If they want to embrace controversy by adding a British leader who died (relatively) recently, they should just go all the way and add the Iron lady herself.

Margaret Thatcher​


This is a joke, don't kill me.
 
No Elizabeth II. If they want to embrace controversy by adding a British leader who died (relatively) recently, they should just go all the way and add the Iron lady herself.

Margaret Thatcher​


This is a joke, don't kill me.
What, not Churchill, Disraeli, or Gladstone, who, gender representation aside, were far better and generally more admired PM's. Thatcher is still a very divisive in the UK, even in living memory. Some call her, "the Iron Lady," others call her, "the Wicked Witch of Whitehall."
 
The British Empire was in no way, form or shape a good thing, and the fact that the loss of their emoire broke fragile Europeans psyche is in no way, form, or shape justification for the continued rule of peopel across the world by European Empires.

White supremacy is an ugly thing in all its shades, and the notion that it's good for non-white people to be ruled by white people is very, very, very, very much one of them.
 
I'm just saying that the British Empire was mostly a good thing, even if it wasn't the preferred leader of many of its subjects, because even democratic governments are often not the preferred leaders of many of their "citizens".
I mean the good thing about most "democracies" is that at least people have a vote and if they don't like their leaders it can change.

Regarding Elizabeth II, even though she is considered iconic I see her as more of a figurehead/symbolic leader, rather than the actual leader that well leads. I think if you want to look for potential leaders for England/British Empire from the 20th century onward it's best to look at their prime ministers.
 
No Elizabeth II. If they want to embrace controversy by adding a British leader who died (relatively) recently, they should just go all the way and add the Iron lady herself.

Margaret Thatcher​


This is a joke, don't kill me.
Just like Obama, Reagan, Bush, Trump, etc...Thatcher is far too recent and too controversial.
The British Empire was in no way, form or shape a good thing, and the fact that the loss of their emoire broke fragile Europeans psyche is in no way, form, or shape justification for the continued rule of peopel across the world by European Empires.
I could say that decolonization was in no way, form or shape a good thing, and the fact that being colonized broke fragile natives psyche is in no way, form or shape justification for the destruction of the European empires, or we could drop the subject and just, if not agree to disagree, accept that neither of us will ever change the other's deeply-held belief about this.
White supremacy is an ugly thing in all its shades, and the notion that it's good for non-white people to be ruled by white people is very, very, very, very much one of them.
It was mostly a force for good, spreading judiciary, literacy, medicine, etc...Yes, it did some bad things (Boer concentration camps, Irish potato famine), but on balance, it was far more good than bad. There are entire ethnic groups that would not exist if Europeans had never colonized other parts of the world. I wouldn't exist, and neither would any of my family or friends.

I am reaching, but I fall, and the stars are black and cold as I stare into the void of a post-imperial world...
I mean the good thing about most "democracies" is that at least people have a vote and if they don't like their leaders it can change.

Regarding Elizabeth II, even though she is considered iconic I see her as more of a figurehead/symbolic leader, rather than the actual leader that well leads. I think if you want to look for potential leaders for England/British Empire from the 20th century onward it's best to look at their prime ministers.
A vote between two choices that are usually equally bad or nearly so...
I don't think that a Civ leader needs to be someone with actual power, an iconic representation of their nation is better.
 
I don't think that a Civ leader needs to be someone with actual power, an iconic representation of their nation is better.
That's fine if there are really no other great choices. But in my mind England has many better choices to choose from then say Argentina, who I admit I wouldn't mind Eva Peron over any other acual leader.

Another thing to consider is the playstyle like I mentioned earlier. I don't see any compelling game mechanic for Elizabeth II, other than something to do with decolonization, which honestly, I can't fathom being part of any England/British playstyle.
 
That's fine if there are really no other great choices. But in my mind England has many better choices to choose from then say Argentina, who I admit I wouldn't mind Eva Peron over any other acual leader.

Another thing to consider is the playstyle like I mentioned earlier. I don't see any compelling game mechanic for Elizabeth II, other than something to do with decolonization, which honestly, I can't fathom being part of any England/British playstyle.
Eva Peron as the Argentine leader would be like Gezina Kruger as the Boer leader.
 
British decolonization was also trauma conga line from the perspective of Britons, a massive loss of power and prestige for an empire that once ruled the waves. And I say this as someone whose country fought against the British Empire several times. Ideally the British would have gotten to keep most of their Victorian-era empire, only losing some small areas like South Africa and Ireland (both of which became Commonwealth realms with the British monarchy intact instead of becoming completely independent). Essentially the Empire should have stayed the way it was in ca 1930.

It's interesting that the only acceptable areas for the British Empire to lose in your eyes are either your own country (and one in which you clearly hold a great deal of respect for the Afrikaans' attempts to avoid British domination), or white-majority nations. Why do we South Africans - and the Irish - deserve autonomy, but the Indian subcontinent does not?

On the topic of the thread - I think having Elizabeth II as a ruler would be a very strange choice. Not only is she very recent as a ruler, but it gets into an argument over whether or not she had any meaningful power. Civ tries to put leaders in charge who had meaningful power over the nations they're the leader of, and Elizabeth II either didn't have much in the way of power to take any actions with and shouldn't be a civ leader, or did have power and is responsible for enough controversial happenings in the UK over the last 70 years that she shouldn't be a civ leader, in my opinion.
 
It's interesting that the only acceptable areas for the British Empire to lose in your eyes are either your own country (and one in which you clearly hold a great deal of respect for the Afrikaans' attempts to avoid British domination), or white-majority nations. Why do we South Africans - and the Irish - deserve autonomy, but the Indian subcontinent does not?
Because both of those countries initially became Dominions, retained the British monarchy, and didn't chart an anti-Western course. I would have been cool with more autonomy for India, though. Also, neither South Africa nor Ireland were the jewel in the crown of the British Empire. Losing India, more than any other colony, was the greatest blow to British self-esteem. Decolonization in the rest of Africa usually resulted in a variety of psycho dictators (Mugabe, Amin, etc...) who were often quite anti-Western, and friendly with the Soviet Bloc. Dominion status for South Africa resulted in Jan Smuts being one of the premier diplomatic and political figures of the first 20th century, a former foe of the British Empire who became a loyal and influential PM in it.
Essentially, Ireland and South Africa were relatively minor colonies with a history of successful self-government, whereas India, prior to British imperialism, had been a colony of the Mogul Empire, and divided into a bunch of tiny states before that.
The Boer Republics were developing on the lines of other Western nations...they weren't tribal chiefdoms, and if the British hadn't captured Boer women and children, and murdered them in concentration camps, to quote the great John Edmond, "we, the rag tag army would have driven them into the sea."
On the topic of the thread - I think having Elizabeth II as a ruler would be a very strange choice. Not only is she very recent as a ruler, but it gets into an argument over whether or not she had any meaningful power. Civ tries to put leaders in charge who had meaningful power over the nations they're the leader of, and Elizabeth II either didn't have much in the way of power to take any actions with and shouldn't be a civ leader, or did have power and is responsible for enough controversial happenings in the UK over the last 70 years that she shouldn't be a civ leader, in my opinion.
Victoria has been in many Civ games, she was a figurehead, too. I think Wilhelmina (another figurehead) was in at least one Civ game.
 
Because both of those countries initially became Dominions, retained the British monarchy, and didn't chart an anti-Western course. I would have been cool with more autonomy for India, though. Also, neither South Africa nor Ireland were the jewel in the crown of the British Empire. Losing India, more than any other colony, was the greatest blow to British self-esteem. Decolonization in the rest of Africa usually resulted in a variety of psycho dictators (Mugabe, Amin, etc...) who were often quite anti-Western, and friendly with the Soviet Bloc. Dominion status for South Africa resulted in Jan Smuts being one of the premier diplomatic and political figures of the first 20th century, a former foe of the British Empire who became a loyal and influential PM in it.
Civ, in all of its iterations, has not determined its list of civ's and leaders based on the simple pivotal metric of Pro- vs. Anti-Western courses of policy in a 20th and 21st Century viewpoint. I see no reason or benefit for such a viewpoint to be installed, or seriously considered.
 
Civ, in all of its iterations, has not determined its list of civ's and leaders based on the simple pivotal metric of Pro- vs. Anti-Western courses of policy in a 20th and 21st Century viewpoint. I see no reason or benefit for such a viewpoint to be installed, or seriously considered.
But that comment was about my views on which colonies deserved to be let go, not about inclusion in Civ games...
 
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