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Should Germany have Won WW1?

Any German victory or conditional surrender would have been better for all.

Adler
What would have been is entirely unknowable.

If it means a German superpower settles down peacefully, reforms into a full democracy, while spreading that kind of politics and principles around, that is a positive scenario. Especially important if it doesn't take any French colonies, but adopts a poliy of decolonisation as part of a negotiated peace, just to screw over the imperal powers it has brung low. That would be interesting, and probably kick-start the process.

A worst case scenario is rather a the strengthening of the military, the Junkers and the monarchical superstructure, to the point that it goes imperialistic overseas, while deciding it can fight the working class to submission at home. Then you've got a recipy for nasty imperial politics, with the prospect of great power conflict, and preconditions for a Soviet style revolution brewing at home.

There's simply no way of knowing how a victorious Imperial Germany would have ended up. Winning the war would be a necessary start, but there's simply no way of knowing who would win such a German peace. And there's no real reason to assume that everything would have been smooth sailing into clear and sunlit ocean, had Germany only won WWI.

Still, better for Europe? Quite likely, considering few things could be worse than the WWII it did get (though some other form of disastrous war is very possible). Better for non-Europe? A bit less obvious. WWI
 
Explain please.
Well, sides did win in the end, someone had to but, because of the primitive supply lines employed by all nations large gains were impossible to maintain. Any advance was limited.

I suppose when I say 'win' I mean a complete victory where the entire country is overrun like in WW2.
 
Okay would any Imperial German victory have been worse than WW2, Stalin, etc.

WW2 may still have happened but I doubt Imerial Germay even unreformed int a democracy would have been worse than Hitler. No cold war as we know it and German colonial policy and administration seemed better than most if not all other European powers including the British.

Even France would have been better off if it collapsed in 1914. Some countries would be worse off or not exist as we kno it(Poland, Israel, Czech Republice, Yugoslavia and its republics etc).
 
Okay would any Imperial German victory have been worse than WW2, Stalin, etc.

WW2 may still have happened but I doubt Imerial Germay even unreformed int a democracy would have been worse than Hitler. No cold war as we know it and German colonial policy and administration seemed better than most if not all other European powers including the British.

Even France would have been better off if it collapsed in 1914. Some countries would be worse off or not exist as we kno it(Poland, Israel, Czech Republice, Yugoslavia and its republics etc).

Yeah a victorious Germany would never abuse its new hegemony over europe and brutalise its new puppet states for commerical edification :rolleyes:.

I mean the US was properly democratic during the turn of the century, and its treatment of latin america was hardly pleasent. If we want to look at how a how germany might treat europe in victory I think the Warsaw Pact is probably a good model - exploitation, unrest, and german occupations. Plus if militarism brought them a quick victory in the Great War, they are unlikly to give it up for democracy are they?

As to german colonial adminstration being better? What are you on - the Herero Wars, the constant Tanzanian revolts and brutal missionary activity, and the fact that despite this they still couldn't turn a profit rather counts against them...

Overall its hard to say if German victory would have been better or not, I'd say there would be low intensity wars all over europe and germanies new colonial gains and eventually Russia would industrialise and want to break free of german influence/reclaim eastern europe resulting in another huge and bloody conflict. Plus if germany imposes too nasy terms on the allies you'll probably have their financial meltdowns triggering a different Great Depression by and by.
 
Yeah a victorious Germany would never abuse its new hegemony over europe and brutalise its new puppet states for commerical edification :rolleyes:.

I mean the US was properly democratic during the turn of the century, and its treatment of latin america was hardly pleasent. If we want to look at how a how germany might treat europe in victory I think the Warsaw Pact is probably a good model - exploitation, unrest, and german occupations. Plus if militarism brought them a quick victory in the Great War, they are unlikly to give it up for democracy are they?

As to german colonial adminstration being better? What are you on - the Herero Wars, the constant Tanzanian revolts and brutal missionary activity, and the fact that despite this they still couldn't turn a profit rather counts against them...

Overall its hard to say if German victory would have been better or not, I'd say there would be low intensity wars all over europe and germanies new colonial gains and eventually Russia would industrialise and want to break free of german influence/reclaim eastern europe resulting in another huge and bloody conflict. Plus if germany imposes too nasy terms on the allies you'll probably have their financial meltdowns triggering a different Great Depression by and by.

I'm not saying it would be milk and honey but would you have had the gulags, holocaust, WW2, the Great Depression, etc. I'm not imagining it would be fun for the losers.
 
I'm not saying it would be milk and honey but would you have had the gulags, holocaust, WW2, the Great Depression, etc. I'm not imagining it would be fun for the losers.

Well you'd have a different Great Depression, probably another holocaust if/when Russia has a right wing revolution (maybe the French would have go at it too ala the social context of the Dreyfus affair) and lots of death as Germany enforces a hegemony. And heck another German-Russian conflict will lead to just as much loss of life, and Japan will still be wanting to invade China...

The reason I think its better that the Anglo-French win is that unlike Germany and Russia they lack the motivation and manpower to enforce vassaldom on europe. A peace that has Germany lose but save face and money/be utterly discredited would be fair more conducive to peace in europe.
 
Well you'd have a different Great Depression, probably another holocaust if/when Russia has a right wing revolution (maybe the French would have go at it too ala the social context of the Dreyfus affair) and lots of death as Germany enforces a hegemony. And heck another German-Russian conflict will lead to just as much loss of life, and Japan will still be wanting to invade China...

The reason I think its better that the Anglo-French win is that unlike Germany and Russia they lack the motivation and manpower to enforce vassaldom on europe. A peace that has Germany lose but save face and money/be utterly discredited would be fair more conducive to peace in europe.

why a right wing revolution in russia? russia was defeated by germany in current history and it didnt succeed...
 
Well, sides did win in the end, someone had to but, because of the primitive supply lines employed by all nations large gains were impossible to maintain. Any advance was limited.
Supply lines weren't really "primitive" by any stretch. Railroads allowed millions upon millions of rounds of ammunition to be shot off, miles of barbed wire to be carried up to the front, ensured a nigh endless supply of human grist for the mill, and could even mount their own artillery. Hooray for attritional warfare.

The thing is, attrition isn't ever an end in itself. One doesn't set out to simply grind down both forces to nothing. Instead, attrition is employed by the side that has either a quantitative or qualitative advantage in order to see that advantage tell more later on, when maneuver actually begins. It's a form of softening up the enemy, like a predawn artillery barrage. One can find in this basic philosophy of the counteroffensive the reasons for some of the German successes in 1914, most specifically in the Battle of the Frontiers, when the French Plan XVII was stymied by German troops in the Ardennes, first defending and then taking advantage of the new French weakness to attack. That also appears in the German success in Poland following the Russian offensive failure at Tannenberg and in the Carpathians, where they failed to wipe out the Austrians. As to advances being limited, I present to you the counterexamples of August 1914, summer 1915 (in Eastern Europe), winter 1917 to summer 1918 in the Middle East (specifically, the Levant, but also Iraq to an extent), and the Allied advances in late summer and fall of 1918 in both Western Europe and the Balkans.

It's not that gains were difficult to maintain, or even that the speed of advance was low - the key issues in Western Europe, I believe, were the massive increases of firepower and the ratio of force to space since the last war. Initially, and fallaciously, most observers believed that the firepower increase would aid the attacker by simply allowing him to concentrate vast amounts of destruction at one point on the enemy's line. This isn't really true. Firepower benefits the defense because that usual three-to-one ratio stays constant; if the defender can be shot at, he can shoot at you too, after all. And the increased mobility inherent in the railroad benefited the defender by allowing him to move troops up rapidly to cover any breaches in the line. Hence the strategy of attrition: if the enemy no longer has troops to cover his holes, you can just plow on through the holes. The problem here was that aforementioned increase in the ratio of force to space. Now, with unprecedentedly large numbers in a relatively small space, firepower advantages on the side of the defensive are amplified (the defenders aren't abandoning their fortifications for open ground after all).
obliterate said:
I suppose when I say 'win' I mean a complete victory where the entire country is overrun like in WW2.
World War II's complete and utter destruction of the Nazi and Italian fascist states, along with their puppets and allies, is unprecedented in modern history. Prior to that time, states just didn't get utterly annihilated. You don't have to completely wipe out the other side to win: as von Clausewitz said, all you have to do is make him do what you want him to do. That's the whole point of war.

It is true that the Western Allies didn't secure a "real" victory in 1918-9, mostly exacerbated by their perceived betrayal in offering a negotiated peace on the basis of the Fourteen Points and then ignoring both promises. That doesn't mean that they couldn't have. The German Army would probably have disintegrated somewhat in the lack of an armistice, and fighting would definitely extend far into 1919, but the war would now be on German soil, and famine was nigh, if not already there.
 
World War II's complete and utter destruction of the Nazi and Italian fascist states, along with their puppets and allies, is unprecedented in modern history. Prior to that time, states just didn't get utterly annihilated. You don't have to completely wipe out the other side to win: as von Clausewitz said, all you have to do is make him do what you want him to do. That's the whole point of war.

Just as an example, the Republic of Venice was annihilated on the diplomatic table. Or, what were the Polish partitions?
 
Venice and Poland did not simply go from being major powers to ceasing to exist; there were centuries of strategic decay and territorial loss before they were finally annexed. The partitions of Poland were themselves an example of the fact that major powers tended to survive more than one defeat. They were done away with in the end because they had become extremely minor powers over time; Germany did not.
 
Good answer. But still, the way I see it the demise of nazism and Fascism involved the destruction of those governments... and at the core, how was that different from, say, the fall of Napoleon III?
 
Just as an example, the Republic of Venice was annihilated on the diplomatic table. Or, what were the Polish partitions?
Napoleon Bonaparte, 1797:

- I have 80 000 men and twenty gunboats; io non voglio più Inquisitori, non voglio più Senato; sarò un Attila per lo stato Veneto!"

And that was the end of the Republic of Venice. Not much of a negotiation really.:assimilate:
 
The German state was already a de facto parlamentarian monarchy in 1914. With the Reichstag as power behind the DoW would me made, too. That is no guarantee. However, one thing is interesting: In 1918 Germany was de facto ruled by the OHL. But the generals were not able to to crush the resistance of the Reichstag. Many generals demanded annexations. That was denied by the Reichstag. Instead they preferred a line of buffer states allied with Germany. And with Germany as guarantee for their independence, these states would not have made much resistance later against German plans. Also these plans would have most likely eveolved to a kind of EU much earlier.
France would have lost colonies and perhaps parts at the border, but by no way as harsh as they did with Germany in Versailles. Or with Prussia at Tilsit.
In any case: WW2 would never have happened in the way it did. So no Holocaust, no Nazi rulership, not this level of attrocitis, at least by the Germans.
If the Soviets would have really ruled Russia in such a case of a German victory or if the Germans then invaded Moscow to remove them is another question. Like France becoming a nazi state.
Anything else than Versailles would have been better.

Adler
 
The German state was already a de facto parlamentarian monarchy in 1914. With the Reichstag as power behind the DoW would me made, too. That is no guarantee. However, one thing is interesting: In 1918 Germany was de facto ruled by the OHL. But the generals were not able to to crush the resistance of the Reichstag. Many generals demanded annexations. That was denied by the Reichstag. Instead they preferred a line of buffer states allied with Germany. And with Germany as guarantee for their independence, these states would not have made much resistance later against German plans. Also these plans would have most likely eveolved to a kind of EU much earlier.
France would have lost colonies and perhaps parts at the border, but by no way as harsh as they did with Germany in Versailles. Or with Prussia at Tilsit.
In any case: WW2 would never have happened in the way it did. So no Holocaust, no Nazi rulership, not this level of attrocitis, at least by the Germans.
If the Soviets would have really ruled Russia in such a case of a German victory or if the Germans then invaded Moscow to remove them is another question. Like France becoming a nazi state.
Anything else than Versailles would have been better.

Adler


Lets be honest- who cares about France? Anyone anyone at all? The Germans need somewhere to park their panzers. All wars are going to ave some level of atrocity involved but by most accounts prisoners were treated fair and occupation is never fun for the occupied but it wouldn't have been like the scale of Nazi atrocities. Wonder if france would actually have been better off i the Germans got a quick victory in 1914? No occupation in 1940-44, millions dead in WW1, the cost of fighting WW1 and 2+ the Maginot line.

At Anzac day here (WW1 memorial service April 25th) German soldiers were described as compatriots along with allied soldiers. WW1 you can't really dress the Germans and Turks up as the bad guys only the enemy. Stupid war.
 
Depends on when they won the war. Most likely it would either be a win in 1914, basically Schliefen plan would be succesful. This would be great France and Russia would be humiliated but the pre-war order would not be broken down globalisation would continue fairly unabated and Germany would most likelu continue the road to democracy they already started on (it was a constitutional monarchy). No Great Depression, no Soviet Union and no WWII.

Or they could've won in 1918 with a succesful spring offensive. This would be worse the pre-war economy would be smashed the Soviet Union would exist, Germany would demand a major humiliation of France and German society would be very militarised. The great depression or something similar would probably happen but a WWII is more doubtful and there certainly would'nt be a Hitler, the kaiser would still be in power.

A quick war would have been ideal but the best would probably be an allied win 1914. It would keep the global economic system but it would cool Germany's military ambitions.
 
I think we can agree that the best possible end to WW1 would have been a swift victory for either the Allies or the Central Powers. This would have meant a more moderate peace settlement, less war devastation and no Nazi Germany or Soviet Union.

German victory, however, is the only quick victory scenario- the Allies certainly had no means to beat the Germans quickly. The only scenario I could think of where that could happen would be an immediate entry of the US and Italy, or a total collapse of A-H in 1914, both of which require a lot of imagination.
 
Sure, a swift German victory over France and Russia, might have prevented the rise of the Soviets and Nazis, but something had to replace the Czars that were facing serious opposition before the war, and would more than likely have been disposed of fallowing even a swift defeat. And with that, Communists could still gain power, or any other extremist government.
At the same time, you could reasonably expect France to be in a VERY bad position, probably similar to Germany historically, if not worse (no mitigating leaders). This would turn France into a breeding ground for extremists bent on revenge, rather than the Germany.
The deaths of Austria-Hungary and the Ottoman empires would have been delayed, but not prevented.

So we don't suddenly get no Hitler and Stalin, so no war, we just have new extremes, with the same potential.

What probably would have been best was a moderate peace settlement, either way, but I doubt that would have occurred if either side won.
The next best possibility, likely would have been the French goal at Versailles: the complete and utter dismemberment of Germany, followed by ENFORCEMENT of this treaty.
That said even if the Allies had enforced the treaty of Versailles we could end up with a very different situation in Central Europe.
 
Sure, a swift German victory over France and Russia, might have prevented the rise of the Soviets and Nazis, but something had to replace the Czars that were facing serious opposition before the war, and would more than likely have been disposed of fallowing even a swift defeat. And with that, Communists could still gain power, or any other extremist government.
I can't see any reason why Kerensky and the SRs wouldn't have formed a co-alition democracy or possibly even a constitutional monarchy. That's pretty much what happened historically and the odds of a Bolshevik takeover in the event of a quick Russian collapse are not great at all.

At the same time, you could reasonably expect France to be in a VERY bad position, probably similar to Germany historically, if not worse (no mitigating leaders). This would turn France into a breeding ground for extremists bent on revenge, rather than the Germany.
The French probably would have a revolution, but it seems quite unlikely that the resultant state would've been close to barbarism of the Nazis or Soviets. Also, the French were quite irrelevant militarily. Even after winning the war in real life they were still dependent on Britain to fight Germany. They couldn't possibly have threatened the continent.

The deaths of Austria-Hungary and the Ottoman empires would have been delayed, but not prevented.
Well, that's a complicated issue and quite a vague statement. The empires may well have collapsed, but after how many decades? Neither state seemed about to collapse in 1914 and winning the war would hardly hurt them much.

So we don't suddenly get no Hitler and Stalin, so no war, we just have new extremes, with the same potential.
New extremes perhaps, but hardly anything like the same potential for death and destruction. France would be in no shape to fight and that leaves Britain and what's left of Russia to fight the Germans, Ottomans, Austrians and quite possibly the Japanese as well. This world order would be much more stable than the real one.

What probably would have been best was a moderate peace settlement, either way, but I doubt that would have occurred if either side won.
The next best possibility, likely would have been the French goal at Versailles: the complete and utter dismemberment of Germany, followed by ENFORCEMENT of this treaty.
The USSR would still exist, and I think the kind of Treaty you imagine would have been completely impossible. You can't expect Britain or the US to accept what would in essence be a French annexation of Germany or to commit themselves to garrisoning Germany as a colony. There was simply no way that the UK and US would have tolerated such treatment of Germany, particularly since both would be anxious to extricate themselves from the continent as soon as possible.
 
Or France and Britain would win WW1 just like it did, but instead, they would occupy Germany and there would be no World War 2
 
Lets be honest- who cares about France? Anyone anyone at all? The Germans need somewhere to park their panzers.

I know that was probably a joke but I care about them. So does the 70 million in France and probubly another 70 million around the world
 
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