should I go for Divine Right or not?

[dante alighieri]

I think everyone has had to cut their science funding in this game in the early stages, but usually by the year 1000 or so I'm able to keep it at 80%. Not this time though.....

As the americans I'm on a continent with the koreans, the inca, Izzy, Mansa, Ragnar and Brennus. Most of them have converted to judiasm,or hinduism. I think but I'm not sure, that Mansa founded Christianity. I'm not in a bad position, having floodplains, iron, copper, corn, horse, and incense in my immediate vicinity. It was tough going at first trying to get cities built to claim these resources withought having no science and to not get killed by roaming barbarians. (The Great Wall saved me from that nightmare eventually.) I'm currently number one on the power chart, but the Koreans are close behind and we alternate being the big dog every so often. My question is this:

at 70% it will take me 30 turns to discover Divine Right and found islam. My thinking is if I can found it and spread it I can possibly make some cash out of it. However thats a bit of a long time to research it....if I do the AI's will certainly out tech me....and since I haven't chosen a religion I'm not everyone's favorite right now. Both Brennus and Izzy have rattled sabers at me about converting (Brennus is hinduism, Izzy is buddhist, so I can't make them both happy). It might not be worth it to try for DR when there are other techs I can research faster while trying to get my money making abilities up to snuff. I need to be able to trade and sell techs to keep my head above water.

Hmmmm....after typing this I think I've convinced myself its a bad idea! There are at least 2 good city spots left so I have to try to get the budget right so I can settle them before the skinny incan dude does. (luckily he and brennus I think founded in a thick jungle area. Its taking them time to expand, but I'm running out as borders are starting to touch) What do you guys think?

 

[Cam_H]

I would say rarely is bee-lining for Divine Right a great idea given some of the more attractive technology options that you're likely to have.

To me the most likely exception would probably be when you're going for a Cultural win, and the addition of another religion and access to Versailles and The Spiral Minaret have appeal from a -building angle.

 

[lilnev]

Reasons for adopting a religion (in order):
1) Diplomacy. Neighbors, whose good will you need, are of a particular religion.
2) Useful civics. Organized religion, theocracy, pacifism.
3) Making money. Honestly, this is so far below the other two that I'd rather call it number 3 1/2, or number 4 with no number 3. The return on a shrine, and on the missionaries to spread it, is miserable. Research Construction, build catapults, go kill your neighbor.

peace,
lilnev

 

[uncarved block]

The only time I bother with DR and Islam is if I've played a religious game and gotten three or four of the first six faiths. The AI will always convert to a religion they found, and if most of the world shares your faith, it's worth the time to prevent dissension. Otherwise, even the wonders aren't usually worth what you'll give up by delaying the other techs in that period.

 

[Crighton]

Reasons for adopting a religion (in order):
1) Diplomacy. Neighbors, whose good will you need, are of a particular religion.
2) Useful civics. Organized religion, theocracy, pacifism.
3) Making money. Honestly, this is so far below the other two that I'd rather call it number 3 1/2, or number 4 with no number 3. The return on a shrine, and on the missionaries to spread it, is miserable. Research Construction, build catapults, go kill your neighbor.

peace,
lilnev

I agree with 1 & 2 but I disagree with your assessment on #3.

I would argue that religion can be a huge cash cow (though not Islam per se since it comes so late). Buddism, Hinduism and judaism are all founded reall early and typically spread far and wide, which if you have the shrine = much dinero. I wouldn't actually beeline to a religion myself, I'd prefer to take the later portion of your advice and go appropriate the religion for myself, let the other guy do most of the work, build the shrine, etc then just take it.

 

[obsolete]

Divine Right is a terrible strategy. It's one of those techs that I almost always just stear around and plow deep ahead of it. Let the AI waste beakers on it, I have better things to do with the tech race.

I also don't understand this master plan of founding a religion then planning to spread it and thinking it's going to be beneficial becuase of the few pennies you MAY get if it all works out. This is folley at any decent level of the game.

 

[GoodGame]

Unless you're researching at a rate below 10 turns per tech (and preferably 6 to 4 turns), I wouldn't try for a tech race.
You'll probably have more luck spawing a Great Prophet and light-bulbing a religion tech, especially with some birth rate bonuses.

Better to build courthouses in expensive cities, markets in your wealthiest cities, cottage spam and pick cheaper civics. And maybe you just need to realign your cities plots to work money plots?
Then maybe you could get your research spending back up.

I think everyone has had to cut their science funding in this game in the early stages, but usually by the year 1000 or so I'm able to keep it at 80%. Not this time though.....

As the americans I'm on a continent with the koreans, the inca, Izzy, Mansa, Ragnar and Brennus. Most of them have converted to judiasm,or hinduism. I think but I'm not sure, that Mansa founded Christianity. I'm not in a bad position, having floodplains, iron, copper, corn, horse, and incense in my immediate vicinity. It was tough going at first trying to get cities built to claim these resources withought having no science and to not get killed by roaming barbarians. (The Great Wall saved me from that nightmare eventually.) I'm currently number one on the power chart, but the Koreans are close behind and we alternate being the big dog every so often. My question is this:

at 70% it will take me 30 turns to discover Divine Right and found islam. My thinking is if I can found it and spread it I can possibly make some cash out of it. However thats a bit of a long time to research it....if I do the AI's will certainly out tech me....and since I haven't chosen a religion I'm not everyone's favorite right now. Both Brennus and Izzy have rattled sabers at me about converting (Brennus is hinduism, Izzy is buddhist, so I can't make them both happy). It might not be worth it to try for DR when there are other techs I can research faster while trying to get my money making abilities up to snuff. I need to be able to trade and sell techs to keep my head above water.

 

[OceansEleven]

I like religions. I think it's needed (for me) because of the money issue. I have never played a game without finding/capturing a religion. I should though... -.- . I just can't see how you can go through the game without a religion + shrine.

Anyways. I would say don't do it. If you get a great prophet along the way, go for it I guess?

 

[dante alighieri]

I didn't go for DR, but i managed to be the first to get it anyway and found islam anyway. It was a goofy idea now that I think about it. The only reason I was thinking it was a decent idea in the first place was because I had a recent game where I founded Christianity. Most of the other civs on my continent were hindu (thanks Izzy! ) but I threw out a few missionaries for chuckles. Suddenly a lot of the other civs cities started going into christianity, and half of them converted later on. With the direct line of sight into their cities and the gold coming in, it seemed like a decent strategy to me. The LoS was particularly helpful, since I could see a lot of enemy troops coming at me before they got to the border.

 

[obsolete]

It is far better to let an AI discover Islam. If the AI who finds it hasn't already founded a religion he will switch instantly. There is a good chance this causes another war, which benefits YOU. If on the other hand, you got islam, you really are shooting yourself in the foot. The AI's will make stronger alliances with each other.

And if you can go around spreading islam missionaries late in the game and converting people over after some time... I am very curious what level are you playing on.

 

[UncleJJ]

About the only reason I can think of for getting Islam early is to build the Spiral Minaret. It is not that great a wonder on its own but has strong synergy with University of Sankore. So if having a religion is going to be a big part of your strategy then building both these wonders makes building a monastry and temple of your state religion in every city well worth while. So my advice is either go for the religous strategy hook, line and sinker or avoid it.

 

[Dirk1302]

Divine Right is a terrible strategy. It's one of those techs that I almost always just stear around and plow deep ahead of it. Let the AI waste beakers on it, I have better things to do with the tech race.

I also don't understand this master plan of founding a religion then planning to spread it and thinking it's going to be beneficial becuase of the few pennies you MAY get if it all works out. This is folley at any decent level of the game.

I fully agree. I do understand the masterplan though, it's fun to do. If you really have time to make missionaries and make the shrine work the game is apparently already won (otherwise you wouldn't have the time). As you play on higher levels the number of fun strategies narrows down. On Emperor my cities either build units or are being whipped/chopped for infrastructure.

There are a few sources of money in decreasing order of importance.

1. Tech trades for money

2. Slider at some 20% average for money

3. Resource deals for money, if i don't need marble or stone at some moment i trade them away immediately, same for all the other resources i even trade health/happiness resources away if i don't really need them because my cities are under the health/happiness cap.

4. Captured shrine the only thing i do is build a market/grocer/bank.

As for religion, i used to found hinduism mainly for the one happiness in the beginning of the game so i can grow my cities to at least 4. I stopped doing this because:

1. I need bronzeworking/Animal Husbandry asap for barb protection.
2. Religion spreads too late to my other cities or i find happiness resources.
3. Founding a religion is really risky, it spreads in your empire and there is a good chance that your neighbours have other religions. These religions won't spread so easy to your empire now because of your own religion so you can't align yourself to your neighbours. This means paradoxally that founding a religion means that sometimes you have no state religion because converting to your own religion is too dangerous.

 

[dante alighieri]

It is far better to let an AI discover Islam. If the AI who finds it hasn't already founded a religion he will switch instantly. There is a good chance this causes another war, which benefits YOU. If on the other hand, you got islam, you really are shooting yourself in the foot. The AI's will make stronger alliances with each other.

And if you can go around spreading islam missionaries late in the game and converting people over after some time... I am very curious what level are you playing on.

Noble level. And I was surprised it worked, myself too.

 

[Winston Hughes]

I recently had a mad rush for Divine Right, although it was under very particular circumstances.

Isolated on a small but food-rich continent, I had developed a powerful caste-system/pyramids SE, but had missed out on all the other religions thanks to my Optics beeline. I was pumping out the GPs at a healthy rate, with all five of my cities weighing in, but was unable to supercharge the GP generation with Pacifism.

Having met an AI civ and traded for Theology and Monarchy, I tuned my entire economy to maximise research to grab Divine Right in double quick time (I ran a major food defecit in three of the cities). Two cities got the Pacifism bonus straight away, and I quickly knocked out a Monastery and three Missionaries to convert the others.

Beyond that kind of religiously-challenged situation, or some sort of religion-based strategy, Divine Right always seems to be right at the bottom of the tech-priority list.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

I wish someone would know how to mod the game such that the first person to reach divine right receives a great prophet (in warlords, you got a great general if you reach facism first). At least you can sacrifice that great prophet for an Islamic golden age.

 

[KMadCandy]

It is far better to let an AI discover Islam. If the AI who finds it hasn't already founded a religion he will switch instantly. There is a good chance this causes another war, which benefits YOU./QUOTE]

good point. that is definitely an area i need to learn to capitalize on more. politics/worst enemy stuff/using my friends as puppy dogs to harass other civs is not my best quality atm. capitalizing on religious differences can be a big part of that.