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Should Order/Communism provide superior spies?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Optimizer, Apr 16, 2013.

  1. Optimizer

    Optimizer Sthlm, SWE

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    With the new Ideology system, the Order (Communism) ideology gives a bonus to espionage. Previous Civ games, since Civ 2, have also provided Communist civilizations with stronger spies.

    Are Communist espionage skills consistent with real-world history?

    Several Soviet intellectuals and officials defected to the West; apparently Soviet counter-intelligence failed many times. In the meantime, CIA and other Western intelligence agencies were influential around the world. Many of the cases of increased Soviet influence were due to military force; not least the counter-offensive during World War II, and the invasions of Hungary, Czechoslovakia and Afghanistan.

    There seems to be a popular image that the US and other Western countries in the 1950s and 60s were infested by Communist moles, selling out military secrets to the Soviets. Is there any truth to this image?

    The Order ideology should have advantages when it comes to infrastructure, military production and happiness (interpreted as government control, rather than the psychological happiness), while Freedom should have better spies.
     
  2. Arachnofiend

    Arachnofiend Perturbed Pugilist

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    As far as I'm aware the Soviet spy network wasn't any bigger or more pervasive than that of the United States. I know that the Soviets had spies in the Manhattan Project that were successful enough to replicate the bomb soon after the war but there weren't any other espionage missions that were of that level of importance.

    It makes more sense for all ideologies to have different bonuses to spying. If coups are still in I could see Freedom having an increased chance of success against city-states following a different ideology since that is basically America's thing-they were more successful at tearing down the presiding regime than installing a new one but still.
     
  3. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    You're right. I don't know if the Soviets were actually better at spying than us. The Double Agents bonus seems to imply that they infiltrate other countries' spy agencies in order to do counter-intelligence. The thing is, if they are really good, you don't know that anything happened. We only catch the ones that are bad and vice versa.
     
  4. TheMarshmallowBear

    TheMarshmallowBear Benelovent Chieftain of the BearKingdom

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    Doesn't one of the Tenents provide a decreased effiency of enemy spies?
     
  5. Arachnofiend

    Arachnofiend Perturbed Pugilist

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    Historians have access to old Soviet records now. It's how we know they were in the Manhattan Project.
     
  6. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    True, but that's just one data point. The early Cold War was rife with suspicion that they had infiltrated Hollywood, Congress, the military, countercultures, etc, etc, etc. Aside from the Manhattan Project, I don't think they had any better talent for espionage than we do. Both sides caught each others' spies.

    I agree that Freedom spies should be better at coups. And not just against enemy ideologies. Sometimes we suppress democratic movements in order to place an autocratic regime that we could control better. In the spy world pragmatism trumps idealism.

    I wonder what Autocratic spies should be able to do better? Get more tips about enemy movements?
     
  7. Akinaba

    Akinaba Warlord

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    Just want to admit: speaking of real espionage networks one can never speak of for sure.

    USSR intelligence system was one of the worlds largest. So was US.

    However, USSR counter intelligency system was even, or much more powerful, than that of US (again, it's only personal assumption), and that can certainly be depicted in Communism policy tree. However it also can not. :D
     
  8. Arachnofiend

    Arachnofiend Perturbed Pugilist

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    Nah, my point was that getting all those documents showed that we really did trump up the ~communist infiltration~ more than we ever should have. We looked, but there wasn't any evidence of what people like McCarthy was claiming.

    Suppressing a democratic movement was usually justified by saying that they were secretly communist sympathizers. Never mind that in places such as Cuba and Vietnam the leaders didn't turn communist until after we intervened and they needed someone to protect them from our influence. :lol:
     
  9. Optimizer

    Optimizer Sthlm, SWE

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    Nazi Germany's espionage missions against Britain were a complete failure. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-Cross_System

    Socialist and Fascist dictatorships would apparently be more efficient to crack down organized crime, political opposition and sabotage, than democratic nations would be.
     
  10. Akinaba

    Akinaba Warlord

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    I'd go further, and state that in real world politics idealism never triumphs benefits and it's always been a curtain for harsh and "nesscesary" movements.

    It's interesting point, that Autocratic (as you say "Nazy") espionage system was massive as well. Lets not fix only on those "Democratic" and "Communist" type of espionage, let's try to compare all three...

    Also, though I know that not everyone quiet adult here, I'd like to suggest to avoid terms like "theirs" and "ours" in this particular discussion, since for the reason of national variety of members of this forum (though it might be surprise for somebody) it's not quiet understandable who you do speak of. :D
     
  11. SamBC

    SamBC Emperor

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    HUAC exaggerated the threat? Who knew!?
     
  12. AriochIV

    AriochIV Colonial Ninja

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    I don't see that communist systems provide superior spies. The Soviet Union had a superior spy program because they invested an unusual proportion of resources in it; it was an obsession. Other communist countries such as China, Cuba or North Korea are not known for their excellent spies.

    Autocratic systems that don't have to observe the rights of citizens can have very effective secret police, but these are not what is represented by Civ V's Spies.
     
  13. SamBC

    SamBC Emperor

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    Then again, SP choices represent the choices of what your people invest resources in, really. So tenets that represent having put more resources into espionage is a reasonable thing to have.
     
  14. AriochIV

    AriochIV Colonial Ninja

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    That's true, and anything that allows for an element of investment in the otherwise-free Espionage system would be welcome. I'm just not sure Ideologies are the right area to do it in. Any type of free/fascist/communist nation can have super-duper spies, and if you have to duplicate the same effect in three different trees, then that effect is probably in the wrong place.
     
  15. Optimizer

    Optimizer Sthlm, SWE

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    G & K features a popular image of "spies" which corresponds more to intelligence officers of the real world. A real-world spy is typically a government employee, recruited by an enemy intelligence officer, to spy against their superiors. A double agent is a spy who remains loyal to their master, working against the intruding intelligence agency.

    As the Eastern Bloc was not remarkable for turning spies, the "double agents" policy makes little sense.
     
  16. EricTheGreat12

    EricTheGreat12 King

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    In the Order ideologie in BNW, there is an advantge for spies: Double Agents; Spies double up their chance for defending against enemy agents
     
  17. ImperialChaos

    ImperialChaos President

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    No, but perhaps the ability to buy spies with faith upon completion of the branch.
     
  18. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    There are 14-16 Tenets in each Ideology. I don't think there's going to be finishers.
     
  19. ImperialChaos

    ImperialChaos President

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    Jeez, they upgraded it that much in BNW?
     
  20. JuhQman

    JuhQman Chieftain

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    I would not be surprised if one of the tenents in order provides and extra spy.

    However it could possibly lead to a slight imbalance with the English UA.
     

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