Should Quebec be Independant Thread

[De Lorimier]

Montreal Canadiens, eh?

Canadiens indeed!

Before and after the conquest of New-France by Britain, french people living in Quebec called themselves Canadiens. They kept the name since Loyalist and most english-speaking people who established themselves here and in Canada called themselves English, Scotish, Irish or British, not Canadian (that's the frogs they would have thought). Like so many other things, the name was later adapted to fit the new realities and aspirations of what we now know as Canadians. That came in the early 20th century, post WW1 only. In 1917, when Le club de hockey Canadien was formed, the term still meant french-speaking folks. In the modern concept, they would have named that team Québécois, but it's not changing, it's part of history.

 

[De Lorimier]

I feel that as long as one quebecer feels that Quebec should remain part of Canada, then it should remain as part of Canada. Is Canada oppressing the Quebecer language/culture/religion/point of view? If no, then they do not have legitimate reason to seperate.

Did the Czech Republic oppress the people of Slovakia? Did Serbia oppress the people of Montenegro? It's not a question of oppression anymore, it's about creating an independant state for us, not against anyone.

 

[Shaihulud]

I think the question would be, why should Canada allow Quebec to be independent? What is the criterion for a nation to be declared independant. Small nations sometimes get swallowed up in history and are known to be extremely mercenary in their dealings with larger country. It might not be in Canadas interest to allow a possible security threat become independant

 

[De Lorimier]

Believe me, there's no security threat. Canada has an army, Quebec doesn't. If anything the security threat would be against us, not them. The truth is, I cannot imagine a violent end to this issue.

 

[Rossiya]

i said yes, and i am a fellow commonwealther (?) over the pond in london. i think quebec should be independant, purely for cultural and language differences, and possibly religion (is quebec catholic?).

 

[simonnomis]

No Quebec should not be independent. People should learn to cooperate and get on with each other without always resorting to independence or seperation; too often its seen as an easy way out/solution, rather than tackling the issues at the heart of the problem. I think if you have to resort to independence, as in eg Yugoslavia, then you have failed.

 

[Shaihulud]

I don't mean that Quebec can be an overt threat, just that it might become a threat by proxy to some other nation, which Quebec feels more culturally and linguistically closer to. I meant this hypothetically of course.

 

[Rik Meleet]

(..)Besides, I really believe having fewer but larger countries instead of more small ones is better. Strength in unity and numbers and all that.(..)

I'm the exact opposite.

 

[De Lorimier]

No Quebec should not be independent. People should learn to cooperate and get on with each other without always resorting to independence or seperation; too often its seen as an easy way out/solution, rather than tackling the issues at the heart of the problem. I think if you have to resort to independence, as in eg Yugoslavia, then you have failed.

Yeah, because Yugoslavia was such a great federation, it worked perfectly! I wonder why the people there felt like going their own way...

 

[Masquerouge]

I voted no. Canada is not a bad country to be in, it's not like the Quebecois are oppressed or anything.

 

[simonnomis]

Yeah, because Yugoslavia was such a great federation, it worked perfectly! I wonder why the people there felt like going their own way...

Thats the point though. Federations work fine when people learn to cooperate and compromise on all sides for the good of the nation as a whole. That is what should be worked at, rather than going for the independence button. Yugoslavia was much better at this during Tito's time, though you are right there were still inequalities in the relationships between the various states.

 

[MamboJoel]

Well, they said no.

 

[jamiethearcher]

What is a clear majority?

I go for 50 + 1

For a major decision like this, I would think 2/3rds would be a clear majority. Anything less than that, and I would personally not support seccesion.

 

[bhsup]

What would this do to the rest of Canada, politically speaking? I know Alberta is more conservative than the rest of the nation, so wouldn't that tend to swing things a smidge to the right if Quebec bolted from the Federal scene? Just curious.

EDIT: of -> if

Somebody in the know answer this or I'll just have my minions in the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy annex Canada in the name of the USA and split it into 5 States, rendering the question of Quebec independence moot.

EDIT: Scratch that. I'll just make it a territory so they won't have a voice in Congress.

 

[jamiethearcher]

Somebody in the know answer this or I'll just have my minions in the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy annex Canada in the name of the USA and split it into 5 States, rendering the question of Quebec independence moot.

I honestly don't think it would make Canada more conservative - Quebecors have tended to vote for the bloc and parti quebequois parties, with federalists tending to vote for the liberals. However, in the most recent election, several of the federalist ridings actually elected Tories.

Just as an aside, how would you split the remaining country into 5? I can see
1) the western provinces
2)Ontario
3) the maritimes

who else would you split up?

EDIT: I should add that I don't think it would make the country more conservative As much as I wish it that would happen,

 

[AdrianE]

If Quebec genuininely wishes to be independent then that's fine by me. Actually that would be a great benefit to the rest of Canada as we would no longer be financially propping up a welfare state within our borders. The Canadian federal government spends more money per capita in Quebec than anywhere else. Essentially taxes are taken from people in Ontario, Alberta and British Columbia and spent in Quebec.

In my opinion, if Quebec separates then the following must happen:
1) any region of Quebec where a majority of the people wish to remain Canadian, stays in Canada.
2) anyone residing in the separated Quebec must choose either Canadian or Quebec citizenship. Dual citizenship is not allowed.
3) Quebec must take its fair share of the accumulated debt (per capita basis).
4) Quebec must compensate Canada for the transistion costs associated with separation.
5) Quebec must use its own currency not the Canadian dollar.
6) The St. Lawrence Seaway must continue to operate unhindered for Canada, Quebec and the US


The problem as I see it is that most separists do not understand how much Quebec benefits from being a part of Canada. Quebec is able to afford very generous social programs (more generous than anywhere else in North America) because of transfer payments from Canada to Quebec.

 

[bhsup]

Just as an aside, how would you split the remaining country into 5?

Yikes! Mega typo on my part! I meant to type "annex Quebec", not the entire nation.

 

[sysyphus]

For a major decision like this, I would think 2/3rds would be a clear majority. Anything less than that, and I would personally not support seccesion.

Agreed, a clear majority on a clear question is essential.

If it meets that criteria, then Canada must allow it, do deny it would fly in the face of democracy.

But Québec voters will have to realise that the PQ can't just draw up the terms of separation, that must be negotiated and should expect the Government of Canada to negotitate purely in the interests of Canadians.

One should note that Jacques Parizeau revealed in his memoirs his diplomacy plan to use external forces to pressure Canada to accept certain terms, reading his plan lead me to belive he'd got even deeper into the cognac that night than usual.

 

[warpus]

If Quebec does eventually split from Canada, it should get its own money, army, as well as take on a large % of our national debt (which stands at over 3 trillion $, I believe). If we split it should be a full divorce.

Quebec should also allow parts of the province to secede from Quebec and rejoin Canada - such as the northern parts which want nothing to do with seperation.

 

[sysyphus]

forced into the Canadian Dominion.

Absolutely not true. Quebec was, along with Ontario, the principal force in Confederation.

Many do not -- and have never -- felt Canadian.

And many do.

Where has Fier Canadien been lately?