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Should religious units have charges?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Myomoto, Aug 9, 2020.

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Should religious units have charges?

  1. Yes, the charge system is good.

    16 vote(s)
    43.2%
  2. No, the charge system is bad.

    7 vote(s)
    18.9%
  3. Yes, but let them be able to 'recharge' somehow.

    14 vote(s)
    37.8%
  1. Myomoto

    Myomoto Prince

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    It's generally agreed upon in the community that the religious victory is one of the more tedious to achieve. It's usually ascribed to the 'spammy' nature of religious units - they have finite uses of the spread religion action, so you constantly need to buy new units and micro them off on the map to spread your religion.

    The charge system makes the religious victory a kind of race of who can generate the most faith to 'out convert' each other, which seems thematically appropriate. However, it creates spammy micro intensive gameplay, that a lot of players find uninteresting.

    What if instead, religious units didn't come with a limited number of spreads, and instead worked more like traditional military units. Spreading relegion could still have a cost of faith for every time you use the ability if the concern is that one missionary could convert an empire with no other investment.

    Alternatively, allow religious units to 'recharge' their number of spreads by spending a chunk of faith/a kind of reinforce action/from a new religious unit.
     
  2. Kmart_Elvis

    Kmart_Elvis King

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    I wish they'd rework them all together. I don't think they need to be individual units which need to be moved across the map. They could be added and used to other cities like adding envoys to city states, or spies and their mission. I also think passive religious influence should be increased, or at least have better, more relevant effects.
     
    StamVI, Datgingah, lotrmith and 3 others like this.
  3. universecreep

    universecreep Chieftain

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    Great idea.

    I've always hated the religious victory option. I turn it off when I play so I don't have to worry about it.

    I agree it is very tedious.

    Removing charges would make a positive change I think. Rather than spamming units, which is so boring, you could just have one unit which could perhaps use the faith you've accumulated to convert cities. Certainly, there would still be the option for you to kill that unit with the other religious "battle" units. I suppose that type of combat could use faith too. There may actually be room for more than the finite amount of religious great people as subsequent ones could be used as super-converters of cities or really good at battles.

    I would like anything to make this part of the game less about spamming units and more about strategy.

    The religious gameplay and diplomacy are my two most hated things about Civ VI and what keeps it still a step below V and IV in my opinion. I really wish the devs would spend some time polishing the current game play systems rather than adding new ones. Diplomacy is such a mess. I can't believe 4 years after release I'm still getting messages about how I'm going bankrupt when I'm making 300 gold per turn and have 5000 saved up. Or when they complain that I'm letting the barbarians run amok in my territory when there hasn't been any for a 1000 years. UGH!!!
     
  4. Josephias

    Josephias Emperor

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    Charges system may be mecanically interesting in some cases, but does not work specially with promoted units, as you will lose interest on them becasue they will end up somehow. A "refill" system (like explorers in Civ:BE, that may need use specific builders or units might be interested, and could be applied to other units too (i.e. artillery), it would require some micro, but as long as you make it so it is easy to manage (i.e. areas of effect instead of single-tile impacts) it can be coped with.çç

    I found religion extremely boring until I read in these forums the key strategy is not to "spam" that much units, but strategically control and manage your apostles, so you are always fighting 3:1, 4:2 battles, instead of 1:1, and your conversion is mainly done through these battles instead of direct charge use (that is managed strategically to lure enemy apostles, or for final touches). This still needs some micro, as controlling a supply line for "refreshing" your damaged apostles is required, but this feels much more strategic that just spamming units (frontier holy site with Mhoska comes helpful here, as well as the new holy waters belief, that allows you to heal in other civ's territory). You need to control when to "push" and when to hold back and refresh, in example.

    Still, I agree religion game is still so shallow and could be improved: let apostles gain experience and more promotions, in example. Missionaries can still keep as charge-based workers/drones with help push religion. Gurus could be allowed a smaller passive healing, to make them worthwile, with still the option to use them with charges when you need quick healing... they could even take a similar path than Great Generals with them, allowing for the "greath prophets" to not run out at the very start of the game (give them also the action to add religion beliefs, and remove it from apostles).

    Just if someone is reading ;): This is the kind of refining we would expect of continued development, not just number tweaking ;)
     
    Kjimmet, Chefofrats and Myomoto like this.
  5. wesplaysciv

    wesplaysciv Chieftain

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    Not 100% related but made me think of this idea:

    The designers should do anything they can to reduce tedium and this is one of them, along with building railroads and repairing more than a single thing. Now we have the new tedium of cultists, too.

    I'm not sure where I fall on the proposal above; I do think even rock bands are more fun than Apostles; to me the bigger problem just the power spike of Yerevan and the size of the active spreads vs. passive spread. I think trade routes could be stronger spreaders.

    But, while the AI is in the current state, I wish they did more to make the AI focus on this as one of its strengths. Who but the AI will produce dozens of missionaries and apostles, sending them across oceans? Making the AI better at actually finishing out a religious victory could go a long way to making the game feel more difficult, especially since on higher levels it is pretty hard to found a religion. (And relatedly, if the AI automatically built railroads everywhere to improve its empire, and those railroads had some actual economic benefit, that could be another AI "advantage". It's also baffling that the AI will leave things pillaged for a relatively long time.) Yes we'd all rather have smarter AI, but it looks like for Civ 6 we might just be left with an AI that is better at tedious tasks.
     
    xaiviax likes this.
  6. leandrombraz

    leandrombraz Emperor

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    I don't have a problem with how religious units work. What I think that needs a rework is passive spread, so it becomes relevant and a viable way to spread your religion. What religious victory lacks are options beyond just religious units spam, so you don't rely so heavily on it, similar to how you can build Rock Bands in a cultural victory, but you can also increase your passive tourism with National Parks.

    Religious victory also needs a late game. It's just sad that religious endgame is Theocracy, in the Renaissance Era. Once you got that, nothing else matters for religious, it's just faith and religious units spam. I think Religious victory should have another win condition, other than converting other Civs. Having other Civs following your religion should be important to win, but not the win condition itself. Idk what the win condition could be, but it should discourage this early focus on religious units spam and push the victory to late game, in a way that you would actually care about building a healthy empire.

    Dead religions should also have more ways to comeback, so it isn't so easy to get rid of them. It would also be interesting if new religious developed throughout the game, as a result of two religious coexisting in a nation.

    Idk why Firaxis got rid of AI inquisitors, which seems to be something they did on purpose, but it would be really nice if the AI started inquisitions in early game, so they can offer some kind of resistance to early religious push. Religious victory was a bit more interesting in 2017, when you would actually have some trouble entering the territory of another Civ. Now, you might have to deal with a debater here and there, but that's about as much resistance as you gonna find.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
    xaiviax and Myomoto like this.
  7. Snarf054

    Snarf054 Chieftain

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    I hate religious victory so much in it's current form I always turn it off. Religious victory should be more like cultural victory where passive spread is the main influence. All civs should be allowed to form a religion with the discovery of Theology. Great Prophets should be changed to act like the rest of great people with more available and special powers related to religion for each one. If someone wants to spread their religion more aggressively there should be something akin to a Crusader unit for each civ that spreads your religion to other cities when they conquer them. Religion as it is in CIV VI is horrible. The game would be 100% better instantly if they got rid of the missionary and apostle spam of the current system and 150% better if they got rid of rock bands as well.
     
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  8. Red Adept

    Red Adept Warlord

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    Much as with everything else, I'd prefer if religion was more organic. Religion should spread along with trade. It's great that the religions wonders add faith, but they should add religious pressure too.

    Rework religion to that it focuses more on religious pressure from cities with your faith. Add religious pressure via trade routes and have it based on the amount of your religion in your empire and then add pressure from the city the trade route comes from, increase it based on the number of religious buildings and religious wonders that city has. Add that pressure to trading posts along that route.

    Get rid of religious combat, it's silly. Rework the whole religious unit concept. Make missionaries act more like spies. You seat them in a city to increase pressure of your religion, promote them like spies.

    Apostles would be a charge unit and can go interact with the map. Have them do 'good deeds', whether that's helping to heal units or help build wonders or districts or buildings. Have them do great works in your empire or an opponent's. If they use their last charge to help out an opponent, then you get a relic out of it, but every time they use a charge, you get a bit of religious pressure in cities within x hexes.

    If you want your religion to spread, you have to show how awesome it is. On the other hand, you can have the Warrior Monks, Nihang and Crusader combat units which, with each victory, increase your religious pressure within x hexes. This would also include victories from regular troops under Theocracy and to a lesser extent, Monarchy and Fascism.

    Communism would decrease the strength of your religious pressure and victories by units under that would reduce all religious pressure in cities within x hexes... etc.

    Instead of being tacked on like it is, this too should be more integral into the workings of the game.

    I've played Civ since hot seating with friends through many a sleepless night in Civ I. The game hasn't progressed out of the 'board game on a computer' phase and it really shows.
     
  9. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    Using faith as a currency for religious missions is an interesting thought imo.
     
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  10. sonicmyst

    sonicmyst Emperor

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    From the civ6 wiki (fan site)

    Religious pressure values for each city are calculated cumulatively for all other cities with Majority religions within 10 tiles. The following pressures are exerted by those neighboring cities in the following way:

    • No pressure if the city does not have a Majority Religion.
    • +1 Pressure exerted by the Majority Religion of the city.
    • +2 Pressure exerted by the Majority Religion of the city if it also has a Holy Site.
    • +4 Pressure exerted by the Majority Religion of the city if it is also the Holy City.
    • Potentially affected by modifiers (religious beliefs or Governors)
    Further steady religious pressure is exercised by each trade route ending in the city (if its city of origin has a Majority religion, of course). 0.5 pressure is applied per turn by each such route, regardless of how far the origin city is.

    ‐------

    What I wish to be improved upon the mechanics is improving the passive pressure and at least a policy that may further enhance this passive religious spread. Spamming apostles is not fun.
     
  11. Myomoto

    Myomoto Prince

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    I'm also generally curious as to why there are no enhancer beliefs that boost the religious pressure from trade routes.
     
  12. CoconutTank

    CoconutTank Unapologetic Warmonger Supporter

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    Hmm... would y'all prefer something more like the Vampires then? A very small group of Apostles that can spread religion and escape with 1HP to the nearest Holy Site upon losing theological combat.

    Personally I do find it rather tiring to micro-manage Apostles. The worst part being that they graphically look the same, but can have drastically different purposes depending on what promotions they have. If I'm going to have to spam Apostles, I wish I can pick Holy Order and Missionary Zeal so that I can properly zerg.
     
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  13. Linklite

    Linklite Prince

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    It's bit of a recurring problem in Civ VI, promotions aren't easily distinguishable. Not too bad with military units - I tend to pick the same promotions anyway and even when I don't, they serve more or less the same purpose. It's not a big deal if I send the my hill scout into woods. Rock bands are a bigger issue, I really don't want to mix up my "Goes to 11" rock band with my "Indie" one. It also gets complicated keeping track, and it's too fiddly to check each time, on the Switch at least.
     
  14. Futumch

    Futumch Calm as a Coma

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    I find the religious game tedious as well, but there are some features I enjoy.
    -Winning a religious fight with an apostle and watching 5 cities flick over to my religion.
    -Suzerain of Vatican City, then using great Admirals off the coast of foreign cities - it's like a shotgun blast of my religion into their heartland.
    Of course getting to that stage takes time but if Vatican City is on the map I'll certainly think about trying it.

    As far as charges go, I think that's alright as-is. Knowing that Missionaries and Apostles have a finite use-by date means I don't have to devote resources to whack one annoying unit moving around in my territory causing mischief.
    I do like Kaspergm's idea about using Faith for religious missions though. That has potential.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2020
  15. Naeshar

    Naeshar Warlord

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    Right now the charge mechanic is fine, if you want to spread religion aggressively. The problem is that it is motivated by the victory condition and thus feels very much like domination. Perhaps a unique condition would help: use the many followers you have to power prayers, perhaps like tourism, but more active, to counter great prophet points generation. Once you accumulate more prayer points then there are GPP accumulated until now, you can win. Have a city centre project that produces bonus prayers each turn while it is active. A holy city might have project with a bonus of religious tourists, encouraged to do a pilgrimage. Add some faith per turn to both and that might be it.
    Some tweaking to prevent early shenanigan wins (projects available with a medieval civic).
     
  16. kb27787

    kb27787 Deity

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    I'd say allow for recharges of some kind so that they don't disappear once their last charge is used.

    Make the purchase cost of a new unit scale A LOT more dramatically for each type (that way, each civ is incentivized to have a healthy mix of missionaries, apostles, gurus and inquisitors, and only a handful of each type, and it make losing a religious unit very painful as the cost keeps escalating--that, unless you are Kongo of course...) and make them drastically different between the different classes, similar to military where you have melee, ranged, anti-cav and light/heavy cav. Also make it such that all classes can initiate combat.

    Missionary: Fast with high movement, ignore ZoC (automatic missionary zeal), but weak in direct combat. Conversion strength is stable regardless of circumstance. Best on cities without an established religion.

    Apostle: Moderate movement, strong in direct combat, higher conversion strength where your religion has higher passive pressure (cities of your religion nearby) and can effectively remove other religions in that circumstance. Gives combat strength to nearby non-apostle units. Also provides passive religious pressure to cities around where they stand, so they do not need spend charges to convert if the enemy simply allows them to hang out unchallenged in combat.

    Guru: Healer unit which heals missionaries and inquisitors (but not apostles) that garrison next to them (medic, basically), weak in direct combat. Can also use charges to spread religion in a city where there is already followers of your religion (spread strength depends on how many converts there already are as compared to total pop)

    Inquisitor: Slow movement unit which is best left at home. Weak combat strength by default (dies to anything else in normal circumstances), but drastically stronger the closer they are to their holy city. Charges may only be spent on own cities which have other religions--removes some followers of other religions with a very minor increase to own religion.

    All units can fortify to heal, and the heal is proportional to that religion's pressure on the tile they are standing (which makes religious texts not so useless anymore). Holy sites and gurus can amplify this effect. All units have a base time of 10 turns to regain one charge, but this can be decreased with promotions. Completing holy site prayers in a city with that religion will additionally cause all religious units on or next to the holy site to gain 1 charge (can be thwarted if the city is converted before the prayers finish).
     

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