Should Saladin be a leader of Egypt?

[Civciv5]

Since Saladin was not even an Arab, nor Caliph, nor ruler of the Arabian peninsula? Similar cases have happened before, like Boudica for all the Celts. He also didn't rule over most of Arabia which can be defined as:

• The Arabian peninsula
• Greater Arabia
• Arabian Empire, the caliphates at their largest extent
• The muslim world

Saladin:
-Sultan of the Ayyubid Sultanate (centered in Egypt and only covering parts of the Arabian peninsula)
-A Kurd
-He reigned from Cairo
-Not caliph, not ruler of the Arabian peninsula or the Arab world

Personally I think he's an ok choice, but a Caliph would have been a better choice. I think he would be a better leader for Egypt.

 

[Plus Ultra]

If all that is true, why is Saladin chosen to represent the Arabs? The answer, as always, can be found online:

"Nationalist Arabs reinvented the image of Saladin and portray him as a hero of the struggle against the West. The image of Saladin they used was the romantic one created by Walter Scott and other Europeans in the West at the time, conveniently ignoring Saladin's Kurdish ethnicity."

"The legacy of Saladin within the Arab World continues to this day. With the rise of Arab nationalism in the 20th Century, particularly with regard to the Arab-Israeli conflict, Saladin's heroism and leadership gained a new significance. Saladin's recapture of Palestine from the European Crusaders is considered an inspiration for modern-day Arabs' opposition to Zionism. Moreover, the glory and comparative unity of the Arab World under Saladin was seen as the perfect symbol for the new unity sought by Arab nationalists, such as Gamal Abdel Nasser. For this reason, the Eagle of Saladin became the symbol of revolutionary Egypt, and was subsequently adopted by several other Arab states (the United Arab Republic, Iraq, Libya, the State of Palestine, and Yemen)."

It seems Arabs are Ok with Saladin representing the Arab World. If that is the case, I see no issue here.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saladin

 

[GeoModder]

I'd put him in the game as a Great General, rather then an Arabian or Egyptian ruler.

 

[GermanSettler]

Egypt has always been an important part of the Arab World and lies in the center of it, plus at the height of his power huge parts of the Near East, Mesopotamia and North Africa (and Yemen) belonged to his "empire". Making him an Egyptian leader wouldn't capture the nature of his reign very well, imho.

His legacy (though it has been highly romantizized by the West, later even adopted by Arabs themselves) also goes way beyond Egypt.

For a game such as Civilization, I think him rather fitting and well suited to represent an "Arabian civilization" - not forgetting the problematic implications looking at it from an historians point of view.

 

[nunor]

He could be a leader for both, yes.

And thus we could have multiple civilizations per leader as well as multiple leaders per civilization.

That would make for some interesting gameplay.

 

[shyPiano]

He could be a leader for both, yes.

And thus we could have multiple civilizations per leader as well as multiple leaders per civilization.

That would make for some interesting gameplay.

I'm still hoping for an unrestricted leaders options, like Civ IV. I never played around it too much, but some people really liked it and it could be a fun spin on the game!

As for the topic at hand, while he ruled over the Ayyubid Sultanate, which was mostly in Egypt, I think his importance to the Arab world warrants his inclusion as the leader of Arabia. Though not the best choice (I think Civ V's Harun Al-Rashid was a much better choice), it works.
In a way, I feel him ruling over Egypt doesn't match as well - mostly because, unlike some civs, Egypt is represented as Ancient Egypt, the only exception being the choice of Cleopatra as the leader (which, still, only puts us in the Classical era). As such, I don't feel a Medieval leaders fits all that well, since Egypt has a very well-defined scope. It's not like America where they try to cram in everything from the moment the nation was born until the superpower it is today.
Of course, I would also much prefer an Ancient leader for Egypt like Ramesses II or Hatshepsut, but that's out of the scope of this conversation.

 

[nukehumvee]

I'd argue that Saladin's Egypt is more of being part of the Muslim empires than a part of Egyptian history. No.

 

[Krajzen]

Wait, what. Saladin never should be the leader of ancient pre-Islamic Egypt.

As for his ethnicity, God I sometimes miss the times before rise of nationalism when nationality and language were less defined and nobody cared about them, and thus Kurdish Saladin could rule Arabic Egypt without any lunatics screaming 'how can other nationality rule our country!!11"

Wish they would return and nationality again became secondary/tertiary trait, not something to obsess and discriminate over.

Tl;dr yes, Saladin is perfectly valid for Arabs because he was great ruler of Arabic civilisation and that's all that matters.

Besides, he ruled the core of Arabic world, including Mecca and Medina, and all his territories were dominated by Arabic culture.

 

[stealth_nsk]

People, you've ruined so great thread. It was some kind of the forum marvel - no replies and just silent "No" votes

 

[nunor]

Wait, what. Saladin never should be the leader of ancient pre-Islamic Egypt.

But who says the Egyptian civ only represents pre-islamic Egypt?

 

[Cerilis]

Wait, what. Saladin never should be the leader of ancient pre-Islamic Egypt.

As for his ethnicity, God I sometimes miss the times before rise of nationalism when nationality and language were less defined and nobody cared about them, and thus Kurdish Saladin could rule Arabic Egypt without any lunatics screaming 'how can other nationality rule our country!!11"

Wish they would return and nationality again became secondary/tertiary trait, not something to obsess and discriminate over.

Tl;dr yes, Saladin is perfectly valid for Arabs because he was great ruler of Arabic civilisation and that's all that matters.

Besides, he ruled the core of Arabic world, including Mecca and Medina, and all his territories were dominated by Arabic culture.

Otherwise, I guess, we should also have Victoria leading Germany.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Otherwise, I guess, we should also have Victoria leading Germany.

And India.

 

[TPangolin]

I prefer a morepor qué no los dos approach, but it's really not a necessary feature. Any diversity in this regard is kind of neat, but honestly we can mod this stuff in as soon as we get access to modding tools.

 

[Plus Ultra]

I prefer a more Porque no los dos approach, but it's really not a necessary feature. Any diversity in this regard is kind of neat, but honestly we can mod this stuff in as soon as we get access to modding tools.

*por qué no los dos

I agree with TPangolin. Leave it to the modders!

PD: Remember I'm counting that you guys can somehow magically develop a "Create a Civ" system that enables you to choose from the existing assets: (1) Icon (2) Name (3) Colours (4) Leader (5) UU+UI (6) UA.

 

[Sufyan]

Otherwise, I guess, we should also have Victoria leading Germany.

And India.

Victoria was ethnically German, just like Catherine the Great was German, or Catherine de' Medici Italian. If the fact that Saladin was ethnically a Kurd makes him unsuitable to lead Arabia, then the mentioned women also cannot rule England, Russia or France.
India thus doesn't fit the context of Cerilis' post (the post of Krajzen), as Victoria was not ethnically Indian (as far as I know).
Saladin ruled Arabia, whether from Kairo or not does not matter much. I think he is a good choice.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Victoria was ethnically German, just like Catherine the Great was German, or Catherine de' Medici Italian. If the fact that Saladin was ethnically a Kurd makes him unsuitable to lead Arabia, then the mentioned women also cannot rule England, Russia or France.
India thus doesn't fit the context of Cerilis' post (the post of Krajzen), as Victoria was not ethnically Indian (as far as I know).
Saladin ruled Arabia, whether from Kairo or not does not matter much. I think he is a good choice.

India fits the original context. Saladin wasn't Egyptian, but he ruled over Egypt (together with other territories). Victoria wasn't Indian, but she was the Queen of India.

 

[Carl5872]

I voted no based on my understanding that he conquered Egypt,but did not hail from Egypt. It would be like having Alexander the Great being the leader for Persia.

 

[Xen]

I voted why not both, although I feel like Saladin would entail a massive reworking of egypt if he were put in as leader- lots of leader unique stuff

 

[isau]

The version Egypt alluded to in the Civ series is mostly ancient and classical. Saladin would be a very awkward fit. It would be like having Mussolini leading Rome.

 

[bite]

Moderator Action: thread moved