Should the EU create it's own army and leave NATO

[Winner]

To react on some statements in this thread:

EU and USA cannot be enemies, because our two economies are too much dependant on each other. Any bigger "trade war" would devastate both sides of Atlantic.

(Well, to be more accurate, yes, they can, but it is extremely unlikely (i can imagine only scenarios of some dictator gains control of USA or EU)).

 

[AVN]

AVN what good would it bring? I am for it only because NATO needs to be re-defined and EUA is one way of doing it...

1) The Cold war (the reason NATO was founded) is over.
2) There are different interests in this world (or at least different ways how interests should be handled) for the EU and the USA.
3) Currently the American government doesn't take the EU and the ideas/organisations it supports serious.

For that reason I think it's better to leave the NATO.
Of course we need to build our own army first.

I think we should "build" our own army and transform NATO into alliance of USA, EU and Canada (+Norway, Turkey and Island, but i expect they will join EU some day).

Breaking NATO can be contraproductive. An alliance of equal partners would be more benefical. West should stay firm, because Russia, China and India will surely try to challange its position in future.

I don't consider Russia, China or India as threats for the EU.

(therefore i can't vote for any of offered answers to your question AVN, because I want both EU army and NATO, and I have opinion )

It's an "and" question. This means that if you agree with :
1) EU should get his own army AND
2) EU should leave NATO
then you should vote yes.
In case you disagree with one of the statements or with both you should vote no.

 

[ComradeDavo]

I vote 'Yes'.

The EU disagress with the US on many, many things these days, and it would be better to an EU army under EU control.

Also, I think it would do alot of good for EU unity!

 

[Hotpoint]

I thought it might help if I threw some facts in on this thread so that people who might be unfamiliar with the numbers could make an informed decision.

Combined EU Military Forces *

Total Defence Spending - €160 Billion ($215 Billion)
Standing Military - 1,846,910
Reserves - 2,827,280
Tanks - 10,712
Artillery - 13,670
Surface Warships - 162 (Carriers, Cruisers, Destroyers and Frigates)
Submarines - 61
Combat Aircraft - 3,182


US Military Forces for comparison

Total Defence Spending - €296 Billion ($399 Billion)
Standing Military - 1,427,000
Reserves - 1,237,700
Tanks - 8,023
Artillery - 5,540
Surface Warships - 118 (Carriers, Cruisers, Destroyers and Frigates)
Submarines - 54
Combat Aircraft - 3,513

Source - IISS The Millitary Balance 2003-2004


*Much of the equipment held by former members of the Warsaw Pact is fairly obsolete but their stocks are being gradually modernised to Western NATO standards

 

[Immortal]

Nah, I dont think I agree. The US, Canada, and the EU are all better off cooperating in NATO then dividing I think.

 

[Winner]

I don't consider Russia, China or India as threats for the EU.

Me neither, in military sense. But China, India and Russia are trying to achieve (or re-achieve) superpower status and (as you can see in Ukraine), whis is against EU interests. Furthermore, western economic interdependence makes it natural for the West to have some kind of Alliance. Therefore I am for NATO in general, but I disagree with it current form.

It's an "and" question. This means that if you agree with :
1) EU should get his own army AND
2) EU should leave NATO
then you should vote yes.
In case you disagree with one of the statements or with both you should vote no.

Well, when I vote no, I will have a bad feeling I am against EU army too, and this isn't true

 

[Winner]

I thought it might help if I threw some facts in on this thread so that people who might be unfamiliar with the numbers could make an informed decision.

Combined EU Military Forces *

Total Defence Spending - €160 Billion ($215 Billion)
Standing Military - 1,846,910
Reserves - 2,827,280
Tanks - 10,712
Artillery - 13,670
Surface Warships - 162 (Carriers, Cruisers, Destroyers and Frigates)
Submarines - 61
Combat Aircraft - 3,182


US Military Forces for comparison

Total Defence Spending - €296 Billion ($399 Billion)
Standing Military - 1,427,000
Reserves - 1,237,700
Tanks - 8,023
Artillery - 5,540
Surface Warships - 118 (Carriers, Cruisers, Destroyers and Frigates)
Submarines - 54
Combat Aircraft - 3,513

Source - IISS The Millitary Balance 2003-2004


*Much of the equipment held by former members of the Warsaw Pact is fairly obsolete but their stocks are being gradually modernised to Western NATO standards

Can you post a link, or it isn't possible? Thanx.

 

[Jawz II]

nato has served its purpose, soviet is gone, id say its time to break it up

also i say its time for the UK government to decide wether they wanna be in the EU or become a part of the US, since they have in the past they had voted down everything that the us wouldnt like in the eu

 

[Hotpoint]

Can you post a link, or it isn't possible? Thanx.

Sorry but you'll have to either buy the book or find it in a Library I'm afraid.

 

[Winner]

Sorry but you'll have to either buy the book or find it in a Library I'm afraid.

OK, thanks anyway

 

[AVN]

Well, when I vote no, I will have a bad feeling I am against EU army too, and this isn't true

I know that you support an EU army. I have seen the results of your (public)poll, which inspired me to this poll.

I like to know how many of the Europeans who supported an EU army, will support leaving the NATO too. By combining the results of the 2 polls I will get an impression.

 

[Mise]

*psst* The more countries the US military answers to the easier it will be to stop them invading other countries. But don't tell anyone...

Anyway, sometimes the US is actually right about some things, and the EU is wrong to be so cynical. And not all of the EU is in NATO, so it makes sense to have an EU army anyway. And NATO is becoming obselete.

So maybe a new organisation, which encompasses all EU nations and all NATO nations could be established. I don't see what's wrong with the original treaty. So it should create an EU army, which will join NATO.

 

[CIVPhilzilla]

Yes, then maybe it would be a wake up call to Bush not to ignore our allies.

 

[JohnRM]

Yes. At this point, Europe and America's interests rarely intersect.

 

[shadowdude]

The Europeans could, but I don't know wht they would. They would probably never use it to its fullest extent.

 

[~Corsair#01~]

The EU needs it's own army, otherwise the US will continue to view us as a joke.

 

[Marla_Singer]

The EU needs it's own army, otherwise the US will continue to view us as a joke.

Exactly. That has to be the final point about it.

If it's truely impossible to build an EU military without keeping the NATO, then we get rid of the NATO. That's not my prefered scenario but it remains better than the current situation. So here's the explanation of my vote.

I voted no. I think that it would be rediculous to abandon NATO. NATO does nothing, but protect Europe.

Are you so sure about this Arminius ?

Don't forget the EU has an independent nuclear arsenal. Moreover, our armies are maybe small but if you compare them to those of our potential ennemies, they are rather decent.

 

[CurtSibling]

The EU militaries are anything but a joke.

Ask any number of 3rd world countries.

The USA considers France and the UK's nuclear weapons to be such a 'joke' that they
spend unholy amounts of cash to plan hypothetical war situations to fight Europe.

 

[Stapel]

The biggest problem is the EU itself. Why should one be a member of a regional political union, to join a military force?

 

[Marla_Singer]

What are the Netherlands if not a regional political union ?