Should the US Invade Greenland (Denmark) & Panama

[Lexicus]

It's 10,000 in addition to the original 15,000 (who were only there because Trump pushed for that in 2019).

Sure buddy, whatever you want to think

 

[r16]

the art of winning depends very much on no challengers . Americans will not like Trump facing anyone who can say no . He was not a Don or whatever . He was just a money launderer . He doesn't like real stress .

 

[Kaitzilla]

Just one of the insane parts of his Gaza idea is moving the 2 million people from there to neighboring countries. Imagine if some foreign power shipped 2 million people to the United States. How do you think Trump would feel about that? The hypocrisy is simply astounding.

2 million Palestinians?

Imagine if 15,000 Haitians showed up in Ohio.

 

[Farm Boy]

It'd still take forever to drive through.

Spoiler :

I kid I kid

 

[Archon8]

Sure buddy, whatever you want to think

Inside the terms of the delay of US tariffs on Mexico and Canada's goods

Trump pointed to progress in securing commitments from Canada and Mexico to secure their borders with the U.S.

san.com

Emphasis added. If you're going to dispute this source, provide a different one.

While Mexico already had 15,000 troops at the border dating back to commitments it made in 2019, during Donald Trump’s first presidency, Sheinbaum said 10,000 additional troops would be heading to the border.

 

[Angst]

It's 10,000 in addition to the original 15,000 (who were only there because Trump pushed for that in 2019).

Trump Agrees to Pause Tariffs on Mexico, Canada After They Pledge to Boost Border Enforcement | Military.com

www.military.com

the idea that you think destroying relations with literally all us allies for some random border patrolling is Brilliant Smart Man Play, i don't know man

the "art of the deal" you talk about, threaten-and-settle, literally only works in a system that isn't multipolar. this would all make sense if you didn't depend on allies wanting to be your allies. you may win against one party, but they're not the only party, and they have other options to go for if you're being moronic.

in regards to this unilateral approach to international relations, i will grant trump one thing; he rerouted panama's diplomatic affliation back away from china. this is important! the panama canal is no joke, and from what i can tell (contrary to what i know of greenland), they were not in that direction to start with.

but

canada and mexico are meaningless shows of nothing. only a minority of the drugs going into the us has anything to do with the border itself, most of it is done in private contacts, including us native citizens, or uses seaborne routes. military patrol has nothing to do with most of the smuggling. what else - you got to build some missile systems on greenland or whatever, but you already had a military presence and knowing the danish government, they'd granted the us that anyways. so that's what you gained. one very important concessions, and three nothingburgers. it's a show of a payoff trump uses to project strength, and you're falling for it.

so what you lost is the kind of stuff many conservatives have a really hard time grasping, especially nativist types. only talking voters here, and newer populists. old style hawks (bush and such, even reagan) understand why this is terrible. so, in two weeks trump nuked relations with all allies globally. during the first term, the rest of nato et al veered away a bit (merkel infamously doing an unprompted speech that the eu could no longer look to the us as leadership), but we kind of garnered that trump was maybe a fluke in the states, and that relations could be repaired. now, it is clear what kind of ally you want to be. talk in canada and mexico is to steer trade away from the states and towards eu; and eu is actually looking to trading more with china. china may be a scary country in some ways, but they're not the kind of country that secure a trade agreement with you, and then six years later, say the deal is awful, cancel it, and then threaten to annex you. y'know, as trump did.

you may think people are crazy for looking towards china at this point, you may think it's bad policy, but that's the reality of diplomacy.

in general, the people who are applauding right now have no idea what people think of you in the rest of the world

 

[Kyriakos]

in general, the people who are applauding right now have no idea what people think of you in the rest of the world

There is ample proof that countries indeed don't care at all what it is thought of them as long as they get away with stealing stuff important enough to them. It's just that some wish to imagine the US is somehow different.
This doesn't mean I endorse this stance. It merely is about noticing reality.

 

[Angst]

There is ample proof that countries indeed don't care at all what it is thought of them as long as they get away with stealing stuff important enough to them. It's just that some wish to imagine the US is somehow different.
This doesn't mean I endorse this stance. It merely is about noticing reality.

oh i agree. the point is that, at least so far, trump basically destroys relations all over the place, his followers are happy with his symbolic victories, and the other parties involved believe the us is no longer really a viable trade partner.

for this to be an argument at all, trump needs to get away with it. a random number of troops that do nothing somewhere means nothing.

panama is a win, and an impressive one. the rest? is it worth it?

i guess trump "wins" a lot by stealing internally in the us, if we follow the thread of thought here, but that's not really the scope of what i'm talking about. i'm talking what trump does internationally.

 

[Kyriakos]

I am not of the view that this is just a convenient 'if Trump wasn't potus, this would never have happened'. Imo it would, just a bit later on. Don't hold your breath on a future - eg dem - US government letting go of the stolen stuff either.
US is better placed to steal stuff there, since anyone can steal more easily from vassals than from adversaries. For obvious reasons, the Eu isn't going to sanction the US.

 

[GoodEnoughForMe]

I feel like I also have to repeat that Panama has had no Belt and Road Initiatives agreed to since 2019, and no future ones were planned at the time.

 

[Angst]

I feel like I also have to repeat that Panama has had no Belt and Road Initiatives agreed to since 2019, and no future ones were planned at the time.

lmao another nothingburger then. i misread the news i found, where i presumed they had planned to renew the agreement.

so it's 0 for 4; in return, all allies look to china to secure new deals. good job.

I am not of the view that this is just a convenient 'if Trump wasn't potus, this would never have happened'. Imo it would, just a bit later on.

idd, the trajectory has been there for a while, it's what the left has been yelling about forever. was still a trajectory though. now it's literally happening.

US is better placed to steal stuff there, since anyone can steal more easily from vassals than from adversaries. For obvious reasons, the Eu isn't going to sanction the US.

mmm unsure what you mean. stealing is easier from vassals than stealing from foreign powers - i mean, if that's what you meant, sure? the issue here is that, i don't know - let's presume two businessmen are negotiating; one is from a far bigger company. they make a deal amounting to a value of 30k. they shake hands, but the big one the way out decides to nick a very expensive coffee machine. it is not even subtle, he's just dragging it across the parking lot, the metal alerts everyone in the building. he puts it into his car and drives away. it was theft, and when prompted about it, he said he took it because he could. the smaller business will not cancel the deal because of the deal's value, and they've made good deals before. but every time they've bought a new coffee machine, this big businessman comes over, shakes hands, and takes it again for some reason. when asked why, he says he can sell it easily for 50 bucks on craigslist. the city is full of other partners, you know, and it's clear the business needs another parent partner. it's not that complicated.

trajectory is the point here. there's no short term gains so far (infact, the short term effects of this are looking to be disastrous, seeing that eg canadian steel manufacturers at my last update still have a us boycott on the books, it is not going to be good for industry), and long-term, trump is serving eu to china on a silver platter.

 

[Archon8]

I feel like I also have to repeat that Panama has had no Belt and Road Initiatives agreed to since 2019, and no future ones were planned at the time.

This is false. If you're going to dispute my source, provide one of your own. Don't just make claims that have no source behind them.

Panama moves to end Silk Road agreement amid rising tensions with US

Panama's agreement with China under the Belt and Road Initiative (BRI), also known as the Silk Road Economic Belt has been revoked.

www.offshore-energy.biz

Under the terms of the agreement, the memorandum was renewable every three years and automatically extended for another three unless terminated by either party. The MoU was extended twice.

 

[Lexicus]

Inside the terms of the delay of US tariffs on Mexico and Canada's goods

Trump pointed to progress in securing commitments from Canada and Mexico to secure their borders with the U.S.

san.com

Emphasis added. If you're going to dispute this source, provide a different one.

Like I said, whatever you want to believe. Anyway, what happened to using the tariffs to rebuild the American industrial base? Did you think I'd forget you posted that?

 

[Archon8]

Like I said, whatever you want to believe. Anyway, what happened to using the tariffs to rebuild the American industrial base? Did you think I'd forget you posted that?

Yeah I believe what is verifiable fact. You may live in denial if you choose.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Yeah I believe what is verifiable fact. You may live in denial if you choose.

How and when will we see the results your expect? What is the measure you will use to show the rebuilding of US manufacturing?

 

[Archon8]

How and when will we see the results your expect? What is the measure you will use to show the rebuilding of US manufacturing?

I was referring to Mexico sending 10,000 additional troops to the border, to supplement the 15,000 troops that were there. That fact was called into dispute (without evidence) and I provided a source, and the source was doubted (again without evidence).

You really need a rule here that if you're going to contradict a source, you need to provide a competing source, otherwise it comes across as holding your hands over your ears and yelling that you can't hear anything.

 

[Angst]

You really need a rule here that if you're going to contradict a source, you need to provide a competing source, otherwise it comes across as holding your hands over your ears and yelling that you can't hear anything.

opt-in for serious discussion is RD threads, which is fully available to you at your discretion. not sure if you can slap hbo rome around there without getting a warning though (and yes, in extension, i'm not sure you'd want this rule).

with the # of posts on a forum like this, it's a nightmare to operate to begin with, esp because the mods try and keep a balanced, well, moderate oversight of the discussion. mods are mods after quite some vetting. it's not like r/conservative where dissenters are weeded out and trash sources are accepted as long as they fall in line, moderation is more demanding on cfc.

regardless, this is all a weird place to discuss these things, discussion about forum moderation decor is often outright asking for an infraction (it's literally not allowed), or it belongs in site feedback; and on that note, i suggest you take your inquiry there

 

[r16]

new Turkey said in 2013 that we would be in the top 10 economies by 2023 , we were at 17 . We might be in the top 20 or not today , can't really say . New Turkey now says we will be in the top 10 by 2053 . (6 centuries after 1453 , not 4 decades after 2013) . As anything that happened here will also happen in places , no promise will be remembered if it doesn't fit in with the day's narrative . Really nice if one is not a believer ; it rots even the opponents .

 

[banzay13]

new Turkey said in 2013 that we would be in the top 10 economies by 2023 , we were at 17 . We might be in the top 20 or not today , can't really say . New Turkey now says we will be in the top 10 by 2053 . (6 centuries after 1453 , not 4 decades after 2013) . As anything that happened here will also happen in places , no promise will be remembered if it doesn't fit in with the day's narrative . Really nice if one is not a believer ; it rots even the opponents .

Reviving Ottoman empire is costly. Making Turan also costly. Sultan (it's joke) Erdogan Goin step by step. Impressive, indeed.

 

[Takhisis]

you may think people are crazy for looking towards china at this point, you may think it's bad policy, but that's the reality of diplomacy.

Oh yes, when choosing which great power in the world to get destroyed we third-worlders just try to pick the one that's trying to do the least damage to us.
It's an incredibly competitive market.