Should there be a hard counter system for naval units

[peter450]

There seems to be a fair bit of discussion of naval units of late, so i thought i'd post a poll

Do you think a hard counter system should be employed
as per land units & early naval sail units I'e Knights countered by pikes, who are countered by macemen etc

to the late era naval units

Currently high str units like battleships are countered by nothing except other battleships or bringing in airpower to hit them first, Attack subs are now going to be 30 str post new patch which means they will become there own counter as they now equal there prev counter units (destroyers) str of 30,do you think naval units should be organised along the lines of, basic example only
Battleships counter destroyers, who counter subs, who counter battleships, so that in effect a hard counter system operates for late era naval units with each unit having an easy victim an deadly nemisis

 

[kokoras]

I think that this could be achieved by giving naval promotions,like 25%vs Battleship etc.A Destroyer with a promotion of this type would have better or more balanced chances of wining a battle,because even with the third combat promotion(30% power)a destroyer or a submarine are too weak.
With naval promotions every ship would have specific powers.

 

[Cvntpumeler]

I agree with you Peter, but I don't know enough about Naval warfare to make an accurate assessment. For gameplay reasons though, definately.

 

[peter450]

well i'd like to see both as they have on land units, so a hard counter system on the units themselves like the Swords>Axemen>chariots followed up by a upgraded/expanded naval promotion system with naval versions of shock, Formation, charge etc that would available on all or certain ship classes, to go along with the current basic promotions of Str an First Strikes

 

[Olleus]

:O
Somebody actualy voted no?

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I agree, one thing though... Air units (ie Carriers) should be inserted into that counter system

 

[arstal]

Only change I'd make is maybe give carriers a bonus per plane carried. Unsure if the game can do that. A carrier with 4 fighters should smoke anything but a sub. (subs would ignore the plane bonus)

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I'd say early is should be
Battle+MC>Destroyer+SD>Subs+Attack Subs+Carriers>Battle+MC

so to improve that
1. Give all subs +50% v. 'Capital ships' (Battleships+MC)
2. Give the MC the ability to detect steath ships [remove it from Stealth Destroyers, let them slip past each other]
3. Give the SD +50% v. Subs [and have it defend when it would be the best defender in a stack]
4. give air units a promotion that makes them better v. sea units (increased Strength and/or allow Lethality)
5. Let Intercepting aircraft in a Carrier automatically airstrike v. an attacking sea stack at least a visible one.


Side notes:
make Carriers Str 24 Cannot attack
Split 'subs' into
Subs (can't see subs, can't carry missiles, +50% v capital ships) upgrades to one of the two
Missile Subs (current 'Sub' stats, but can't see subs)
or
Attack Subs (new patch stats +50% v. capital ships)

Give Subs a Free Promotion if they are built with Uranium [maybe a building that is active with Uranium that gives them a promotion]

 

[DigitalBoy]

Currently high str units like battleships are countered by nothing except other battleships or bringing in airpower to hit them first

Carriers should be the "counter" to battleships. Bombard them with planes, then mop up with destroyers or subs. They're slower, so they should be easier to ambush. And they're more expensive, so it hurts more when they're destroyed.

No hard counter system please.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

The problem is even Battleships move too Fast for the sight range on the ocean

Improve air units, and give them a 'Defensive air strike'

Then you have
Battleships>Destroyers>Carriers

and Subs have a more 'extra' role.

 

[Fanatic Demon]

Well, in my Ranged Combat Mod I give by U-boats Zone of Control, with a low accuracy, allowing them to fire their torpedo's at Battleships with fear beeing countered. Beside that I limit the range at which submarines get detected, making it a lot harder to hunt them down.

 

[BeeBot]

The problem is even Battleships move too Fast for the sight range on the ocean

Not, again, for a carrier group. A single air recon mission can reveal a huge amount of ocean (one of the better uses for airships, in my opinion, especially on island maps).

A carrier can only carry so many aircraft, though. Solution? Put more than one carrier into your carrier group. Why just bring one? Build a stack of carriers, load them up with stacks of fighters. Nobody seems to think a handful of units are good enough in any other kind of Civ combat...

It's a lot of micromanagement to recon every turn, but it's definitely a big, big help. The naval element of Civ could use a lot of improvement, as always, but I don't think it's valid to say battleships don't have a good counter. At the very least, they're vulnerable to missiles and land-based aircraft, just like in real life.

And no, (regular) submarines were never the counter to battleships, historically--submarines evaded big surface warships like the plague in both world wars, because surface ships were so fast they could just ram and sink a flimsy U-boat. And torpedoes of the time didn't pose much risk to the heavily armored ships of the time.

Things are different nowadays, but the main use for submarines today is still attacking other submarines, and strategic deterrence (SLBMs). Attacking surface warships isn't a major function of submarine forces, as it's much more economical to do it with a whole range of other platforms.

 

[snipafist]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, fighters (both normal and jet) need a bonus against naval units. Do that and you'll find Carriers extremely useful in the same way that bombers and artillery are useful on land.

 

[jimbob27]

I voted no........ however I want the promotions to be improved so that you can make hard-counters if you wish.