1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Should there be limitations on which factions can submit government proposals

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Demo Game IV: Polls' started by ravensfire, Feb 29, 2008.

?

Should there be limitations on which factions can submit government proposals?

Poll closed Mar 3, 2008.
  1. Yes

    28.6%
  2. No

    57.1%
  3. Abstain

    14.3%
  1. ravensfire

    ravensfire Member of the Opposition

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2002
    Messages:
    5,281
    Location:
    Gateway to the West
    This is part 1 of a two part question.

    Should there be limitations on which factions can submit government proposals? Specifically, should there be any minimum level of support?

    Yes - Yes, there should be some level of support
    No - No, there should be no limitations
    Abstain - I don't care

    Please also vote in the second poll, asking the question of if there is a minimum level of support, what should it be. Please vote in both polls!

    The poll option with the most votes shall direct our course.

    Link to discussion thread

    -- Ravensfire
     
  2. ravensfire

    ravensfire Member of the Opposition

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2002
    Messages:
    5,281
    Location:
    Gateway to the West
    Blast - copy/paste error.

    If possible, could a moderator please change the question to: Should there be limitations on which factions can submit government proposals?

    Thanks!
    -- Ravensfire
     
  3. ravensfire

    ravensfire Member of the Opposition

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2002
    Messages:
    5,281
    Location:
    Gateway to the West
    No.

    Quite simply, the worth of an idea should be weighed by its merits, not by the amount of support is has prior to consideration. Our system is not harmed in any way by allowing any faction to submit an idea. Indeed, it is strengthened by allowing a new member to make a proposal, and convince others that the idea has merit and should be chosen.

    The idea that "you must have support first!" is simply elitist.

    -- Ravensfire
     
  4. AluminumKnight

    AluminumKnight Conquistador

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2004
    Messages:
    797
    Location:
    WI, USA
    Yes, there must be a certain level of support before a faction can vie for government control. This is to prevent "Faction Spam," that is, silly one-person factions cluttering elections up. If a faction idea is solid, it WILL get support, I don't foresee that being a problem.
     
  5. Shattered

    Shattered Lord of Utopia

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2007
    Messages:
    330
    Location:
    GC, illinois
    I totally agree with you here, Al Knight. I couldn't have stated it better than that. :)
     
  6. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,102
    Location:
    London
    Moderator:

    Sorry, I voted on the wrong, it should read as "Yes" not "No". I mean there should be restriction for a Faction proposal, so at least it covers some mimimum, and to let new players know that there must a good standard for running for a government. If they never got to know what it takes, this game is going to be for the insiders only, so we need to make it explicit.

    After 5 votes, it should read as 3 yes, 1 no and 1 abstain.

    Moderator Action: Done - Dave (4 yes, 5 no, 1 abstain at this point)
     
  7. dutchfire

    dutchfire Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2006
    Messages:
    14,106
    Location:
    -
    No, as per the reasons stated by Ravensfire.
     
  8. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2003
    Messages:
    13,108
    Location:
    Arizona, USA (it's a dry heat)
    What will happen if we have one faction with enough members and all the rest fall short, but people can't switch? Then that one faction automatically wins by exclusion of the others?

    Better to avoid that whole can of worms by just letting the voters figure it out, instead of an unnecessary rule.
     
  9. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,102
    Location:
    London
    The real can of worms is in not making sure that a faction got positions, candidates for these positions, mandates for these positions and organization of these positions. At the minimum, we need to inform the players on the importance of these, and not hope for the best. Expert rule in this game comes around by keeping secret about prerequisites that are already there. We need to get these into the open, and the best way to do this, is by having these points as a minimum. However, we can also have this in a FAQ on how to set up a good faction.
     
  10. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2003
    Messages:
    13,108
    Location:
    Arizona, USA (it's a dry heat)
    You're assuming all positions must be filled from within the faction, but there is also the coalition model where some positions are filled from other factions, or even independents, to obtain a bigger vote than that faction's membership alone.
     
  11. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,102
    Location:
    London
    There may be coalitions of course, I did not deny that. All I say, is that each Faction Platform must present how they want to do it, Coalition or not. There may even be a Faction Coalition proposal where 3-4 Factions go together for setting up a government. However, this will be more true to "Representation Civic", as Despotism and Hereditary Rule is another deal.
     
  12. Bertie

    Bertie Prince

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    583
    If increased role play is one of the major goals of this Demo Game, why would we want to do anything to stifle anyone's imagination? I don't think a one-person faction is all that likely to win many elections, but there are always important loyal opposition roles to be played (for film buffs think of the filibuster in Mr. Smith Goes to Washington).

    Why don't we just see what the game brings us before we make too complex a ruleset? If one-person factions are perceived by the DG community to be a bad thing, any that are formed will likely die a quick death.
     
  13. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,102
    Location:
    London
    We got guilds to handle these solo appearances, Factions serve a role in the core rules in fulfilling a candidacy for running the gameplay-side of it, and to implement the policies people voted the faction in for. There are plenty of opportunity for roleplay, without tampering with the integrity of the election system. The imagination will not be tampered with, as the election would not be tampered with.
     
  14. Bertie

    Bertie Prince

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    583
    Guilds aren’t political; factions are. Let’s say at the beginning of the game I’m passionate about wanting to establish Universal Suffrage. It’s going to be thousands of game years before this is possible. Still, I want to start a faction devoted to this ideal. I do so with the hope of persuading my fellow citizens to follow a research path that will enable us to enter the blissful state of Universal Suffrage as quickly as possible. I also intend to use those thousands of years to fully develop all of the bells and whistles of my faction, including its ruleset.

    Now, at the beginning of the game no one will likely want to join my factions. Why would they? It’s not going to be voted into power because there’s no possible way I can adopt my core civic, and thus there won’t be any nice political offices for members of my faction to enjoy. However, as the game progresses and the likelihood that we soon might be able to enact the Universal Suffrage civic become probable, more people may want to join my faction. What started as a faction of one – virtually by necessity – may then become a faction that many more people want to join.

    I have no interest in starting a faction or in holding office. But if I did, why couldn’t I start my faction on day 1 of the Demo Game? Why must I wait thousands to years before I could do so?
     
  15. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,102
    Location:
    London
    You can still form an election Bertie, but you need 3 people to run for government. This means, anyone can form a faction, down to one person, but you need three people to run for government.
     
  16. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2003
    Messages:
    13,108
    Location:
    Arizona, USA (it's a dry heat)
    So far, this poll result would mean you don't need three people to run for government.
     
  17. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,102
    Location:
    London
    Well, the other poll has stated 3 as a minimum, so dont confuse the nature of these two polls. I do not like to feel betrayed and hijacked in this manner. There were two polls on the matter, both posted by Ravensfire, who got a clear interest in the manner. I will respect the outcome of this poll, as long as the other poll is respected as well.
     
  18. ravensfire

    ravensfire Member of the Opposition

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2002
    Messages:
    5,281
    Location:
    Gateway to the West
    Provo, kindly read the polls again. You will clearly be able to understand the purpose of running two polls.

    -- Ravensfire
     
  19. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,102
    Location:
    London
    This is the first two-tier poll I have seen from you in ages , Ravensfire. But you need to consider the need for some guidelines for setting up a government proposal, how do you want to go about that?
     
  20. ravensfire

    ravensfire Member of the Opposition

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2002
    Messages:
    5,281
    Location:
    Gateway to the West
    I haven't needed to set up such a poll in ages.

    For your second question, see the proposal I've already posted.

    -- Ravensfire
     

Share This Page