Should they eliminate the production district, lower production, raise science?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Stringer1313, Oct 26, 2016.

  1. Stringer1313

    Stringer1313 Emperor

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    If Civ 6 is supposed to be about interesting choices, don't you think they should eliminate the production district altogether? That district is a must-have for me. Every single time. A new city is paralyzed without it. That means the choice is uninteresting.

    If they eliminate it, then lower production values across the board, that might make the game more interesting.
     
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  2. dtfauss

    dtfauss Chieftain

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    Just because something is necessary doesn't always make it uninteresting and elimination is only one option and shouldn't be the first choice.
    Strategy and decision making are still required, which is the interesting part.
    Where do I place the district... where do I settle to support it?
    Builders are necessary - I don't think we should eliminate them. They are interesting in deciding when to build them, with what civics, buy or build, what to improve first, and so on.

    Many things in Civ fit this same mold.
     
  3. redwings1340

    redwings1340 Emperor

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    I've been playing a game as england on emperor, I haven't built an industrial district at all, and I'm doing fine because I'm using gold instead (currently conquering the new world with a frigate and sea dog navy). The industrial district is great in high production cities, but is honestly not that good outside of core cities, in my opinion. Commercial hubs and harbors are better for cities that aren't going to create much anyway, because they unlock trader units that the capital can build, and you can buy a lot of stuff with gold instead of production.

    You need one of the two, but so far I've won with overwhelming faith, overwhelming space and industry, and overwhelming gold, so I think there are lots of viable choices.
     
  4. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    They should increase the tech costs so that a Campus district is more necessary to keep up
     
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  5. Qin Shi Hung

    Qin Shi Hung Chieftain

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    Industrial districts are essential for a science victory, where you intend to research the entire tech tree and want to build everything.

    But that's only one victory type, and factories are less important for the other types, unless you intend to build up slowly then conquer the world with modern units.
     
  6. lamaros

    lamaros Warlord

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    I generally agree with redwings, though I think the stacking bonuses of the industry district could be toned down, such that each area bonus from another city, beyond the first, is halved (and then halved again for a third, etc).

    This way you will still get some stuff from it, but won't see the crazy stacks where every city is an industry city just because.
     
  7. King Jason

    King Jason Fleece-bearer

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    I don't see what an industrial district gives to a new individual city that a commercial district doesn't. In fact, by the sole parameters in the OP, Commercial hubs are better than Industrial districts.

    If we're talking overlap, then I'd argue that industrial districts are even less "necessary" in new cities with clever planning, because you can have 1 city influenced by 4 or more factories which means that city never needs to build an industrial district for itself - allowing it to use it's district slot for something else. Do this appropriately and you'll have industrial cores that fuel the production of nearby cities so they don't require the district themselves.

    Qin nailed it; Industrial district spam is only really 'required' for a science victory. In practice, this is no different than Holy Sites being required for religious victories or Theater Squares being required for culture victories (then again could you win culture without them? idk).

    Otherwise your production needs can be met with a modest use of the Industrial districts.
     
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  8. Acken

    Acken Deity

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    The thing is. Its not in itself a problem to have to make industrial district, workshops and factories. It's even a good thing that you need to invest into these buildings to continue. We had to make workshops and universities in civ5 and nobody complained.

    What is a problem is that there is a high opportunity cost on districts.
    Instead of removing the district altogether I'd instead seriously rethink the production cost of districts in general and make the industrial district not in direct conflict with other districts. One thing that could help in that direction is to also make the district more gradually available. If I have only the campus, the holy and the theater districts available for a long time, I'll be a lot more inclined to make them first than if I also unlock the commercial and industrial districts while I'm still in the early game. In general it's a consequence of science allowing fast beeline. Last game I unlocked industrialization on turn 120 (300AD or so) that's kind of ridiculous.

    Finally we may also rethink the area wide effects of the factory. The idea is good but I think it should at least not stack. So that one industrial is good in the middle of 6 cities but the effect of everyother is less. Hell just this change could eventually make it a lot less valuable, building it is a big investment for the non +area part.

    And let's not forget that commercial districts have a similar issue currently. It may even be worse considering Commerce + Route to the capital having multiple district bonuses is a lot cheaper than industrial + workshop.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2016
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  9. Sagax

    Sagax Emperor

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    Industrial district is a must right now not because it's so good, but because everything else is so bad or production-demanding that you have no other choice. Your proposal just aggravates the problem.

    When people complain about tech tree being too fast, they are forgetting one detail: faster tech tree also leads to earlier establishment of production buildings, yet late game space race is still a chore - because the production costs are there serving as a hurdle. How will prolonging the tech tree change the fact that you need ~14k hammers to win science victory, and that's not counting rocket district costs?If anything, this will put more pressure on growth as the only way to get more hammers once you've maxed out the industrial districts. And that is terribly limited now by both housing and scarcity of tiles.
     
  10. Qin Shi Hung

    Qin Shi Hung Chieftain

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    You don't, actually.

    There are several great scientists who can provide most of the hammers.
     
  11. lamaros

    lamaros Warlord

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    Theatre sites are very very good for culture victory, especially if you're England or a Great Artist civ. Otherwise you can go the France/America national park/resort/wonder method, and just build them in key spots. Or an early game faith based relic culture victory.

    The only issue I have with the industry at the moment is that it's vital for science, which means that science needs both industry and campuses usually, which is a little counter intuitive, and that the area bonuses can stack significantly enough as to make some decisions of city placement in the early game less about making the best of the existing world, and more about planning the future city.

    Victory types and the most important buildings?

    Science victory - Industry and Campus.
    Religious - Holy
    Culture - Theater and/or Holy
    Domination - a bunch of different ways, but generally the AI is so bad you can do it with almost anything.

    The problem is that Holy sites are useful in a few ways, as are Commercial and Industrial, while Campuses are just a bit weak. Mostly this is because science isn't a bottleneck. If Science Victory has more of a science bottleneck then industry moves back into a more general area, which I think works better.
     
  12. lamaros

    lamaros Warlord

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    At least this has more of a real world parallel - commerce is what sustained investment and growth in a lot of colonial settlements.

    Personally I think the issue is with the tech tree costs and the science victory requirements late game, with a minor issue in area bonus stacking, not with the general idea of industrial zones and campuses.
     
  13. sresk

    sresk Chieftain

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    I feel that industrial district are necessary and campuses are worthless you're going to max out the tech tree no matter what. I will say however that traders are under rated. Its great to send 10-15 traders to a new city and then have them all bring in food and hammers.

    But to the OP's point no they shouldn't eliminate them but I also won't play another vanilla game... try modding the game to double the tech and civics costs and halve the production costs... makes the game MUCH better.
     
  14. Qin Shi Hung

    Qin Shi Hung Chieftain

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    And in multiplayer, industrial districts probably aren't that useful.

    They're a huge investment in something that will take time to pay off.

    And until they do pay off, you're behind in both army size and technology, and a skilled invader will take your cities and thank you for the factories.

    They only work in single player because the AI is both passive and clueless. In my first deity science victory, my spaceport was still defended by archers and spearmen.
     
  15. lamaros

    lamaros Warlord

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    Literally the only thing about industrial zones of note is the area bonus stacking you get with the factory and power plant. Up to that point commercial districts and encampments are better.

    The issue though is that campuses are mostly a waste of time too, unless you happen to be near a bunch of maintains in the early game, and that even in the later game you don't get as much return on them because the science costs don't ramp enough for science victory. The science victory techs need to be redesigned and expended, so that it needs a more specific investment to reach them.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2016
  16. Olleus

    Olleus Deity

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    Wait, you build trader units? I always buy them. They're so cheap and so powerful I dont want to waste time building them the slow way.
     
  17. GKrause

    GKrause Chieftain

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    I agree that campuses are a bit weak early. I still think that the industrial district isn't so much a beeline necessity as the +1 cogs from mines that Apprenticeship unlocks. It just seems like you can't get anything off the ground before that tech, meanwhile, the early districts such as holy site, campus, and encampment have such a high production cost that it seems pointless to do anything but get to Apprencticeship ASAP.
     
  18. redwings1340

    redwings1340 Emperor

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    I haven't really thought of buying them, but they're super cheap with production anyway. I like saving my money to buy buildings in low production cities.
     
  19. Zenstrive

    Zenstrive Ocean King

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    Trader units are cheap and very-very rewarding.
     
  20. dexters

    dexters Gods & Emperors Supporter

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    Factories and Power Plans are the few buildings in this game that buff other cities. They are necessary in making production worthwhile with proper coverage and planning.
     

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