Should trade route yields be modified by diplo relationship status?

[Xaviarlol]

I was playing a game last night where the whole world was at war with me. Shortly after making peace, I was simply able to restore my economy by reestablishing trade routes with my enemies. It got me thinking that perhaps a nice feature would be that trade route yield should be modified by diplo relationship.

Perhaps the following modifiers:
Hostile -30% trade route yield (both directions)
Guarded -15%
Neutral 0%
Friendly w/o DOF +15%
Friendly with DOF +25%

It makes sense on a relationship perspective to trade with your allies and not with enemies. Especially the AI, which doesn't seen to prioritize trading with friends enough.

 

[PurpleMentat]

I don't like the idea. Trade routes are not something you can change with agility, while diplomatic penalties can show up out of nowhere and snowball quickly. I would be rather annoyed if the friend I've been trading with were to forward settle me, get mad that I'm settle too closely and competing for nearby city-states, and end up denouncing me inside 15 turns as I've seen happen in the past. If I just sent off a trade route, that's a significant resource tied up at 55% lower value than it could be for a long time.

 

[Funak]

Not really a fan, sounds like a worse version of that trade-agreement suggestion that popped up a few months ago.

 

[joosegoose25]

Not really a fan, sounds like a worse version of that trade-agreement suggestion that popped up a few months ago.

No, I would not be interested in...oh, wait, never mind.

 

[Funak]

No, I would not be interested in...oh, wait, never mind.

Come to think about it that trade-agreement thing was so damn cool, too bad it couldn't be put into practice.

 

[joosegoose25]

Come to think about it that trade-agreement thing was so damn cool, too bad it couldn't be put into practice.

I'm not sure I ever saw that, and couldn't find just now in a quick search. What was the idea, to sign a 'trade agreement' with another civ that would result in a temporary value increase of trade routes between the two civs?

 

[Funak]

I'm not sure I ever saw that, and couldn't find just now in a quick search. What was the idea, to sign a 'trade agreement' with another civ that would result in a temporary value increase of trade routes between the two civs?

Pretty much, it would be like an defensive pact or a declaration of friendship, (slightly?) increasing gold from trade-routes both ways.
The idea wasn't exactly fleshed out, there was some talk about not allowing caravans to pass over territories of people you don't have trade-agreements with, or not allowing those trade-units to use their roads or something like that.

The agreement itself would be free and pretty much always positive, the one negative thing you could get for it was that other civs don't like you if you make trade-agreements with their enemies.
At some point there was also talk about having having an embargo-agreement where you and another civ agrees to not trade with a third civ for 50 turns(standard speed), it would naturally make that third civ angry (and the other civ happy).

You can probably tell from these random sentences that the idea was shut down by Gazebo before anyone could flesh out the details, sad times.

 

[supracseduch]

I'll tell you why this isn't a good idea: Human players don't have an "opinion" of other civs. The fact that you're hostile or guarded against an AI has absolutely no effect on the game even if this was implemented. The situation becomes much worse in multiplayer, since these effects may as well be non-existent. Only the DOF bonus is worth considering.

 

[Gazebo]

I'll tell you why this isn't a good idea: Human players don't have an "opinion" of other civs. The fact that you're hostile or guarded against an AI has absolutely no effect on the game even if this was implemented. The situation becomes much worse in multiplayer, since these effects may as well be non-existent. Only the DOF bonus is worth considering.

Ding! We have a winner!

Can't use opinion for humans, otherwise the shadow AI ( yes, there's a spooky shadow AI) will appear and make opinions for the human. And no, I'm not kidding.

G

 

[Xaviarlol]

Ding! We have a winner!

Can't use opinion for humans, otherwise the shadow AI ( yes, there's a spooky shadow AI) will appear and make opinions for the human. And no, I'm not kidding.

G

Understand, it would need to be the AI's opinion of the human. For PvP obviously this wouldn't work

Could be a Denounce negative modifier and DOF positive modifier perhaps?

 

[Putmalk]

I see no correlation between approach and trade route bonus. As mentioned above, then game play ia effected by the shadow AI.

The shadow AI is super useful for creating new interactions like "move the heck away from my borders m8"

 

[Gazebo]

I see no correlation between approach and trade route bonus. As mentioned above, then game play ia effected by the shadow AI.

The shadow AI is super useful for creating new interactions like "move the heck away from my borders m8"

It's very useful, but we can't use it to manage modifiers or values, because the player doesn't control it.

G

 

[Putmalk]

It's very useful, but we can't use it to manage modifiers or values, because the player doesn't control it.

G

Yes, I know that. And i agree with you. But I wanted to make sure it wasn't just all "shadow Ai is awful"

 

[Gazebo]

Yes, I know that. And i agree with you. But I wanted to make sure it wasn't just all "shadow Ai is awful"

Definitely not evil. Just shadowy.

 

[Xaviarlol]

While I have two experts here on this thread, perhaps one (or both) of you know the answer to this - in CPP, does the AI favour trade-routes with friendly civs, or are there other big modifiers that shape its choice in where to put a trade route?

I know in vanilla that it doesn't really favour friendly civs at all, just unsure if this is also the case for CPP.

 

[Strigvir]

It avoids your big cities like a plague if you get at least one science from their trade routes, regardless of relations.

 

[Putmalk]

While I have two experts here on this thread, perhaps one (or both) of you know the answer to this - in CPP, does the AI favour trade-routes with friendly civs, or are there other big modifiers that shape its choice in where to put a trade route?

I know in vanilla that it doesn't really favour friendly civs at all, just unsure if this is also the case for CPP.

- checking all plots (hexes) in a trade route
- checks if plot dangerous or not (in CPP, plots that are not revealed have a small danger to them). CPP checks seem more comprehensive, also checking plots around the exact route
- CPP AI doesn't care so much if the other civ makes science if they are friends with them
- CPP AI more advanced when handling religion

the list goes on, short answer appears to be: CPP AI yes, Civ5 vanilla no

 

[Xaviarlol]

- checking all plots (hexes) in a trade route
- checks if plot dangerous or not (in CPP, plots that are not revealed have a small danger to them). CPP checks seem more comprehensive, also checking plots around the exact route
- CPP AI doesn't care so much if the other civ makes science if they are friends with them
- CPP AI more advanced when handling religion

the list goes on, short answer appears to be: CPP AI yes, Civ5 vanilla no

In my (limited) experience in CPP, all the "incoming" trade routes from AI are to cities that give me virtually no gold benefit, so I wonder if they push harder on Delta rather than total revenue for themselves. Hm.