Should Tupac leads Inca in Civ7

[Zaarin]

He should be the latter of two leaders. One could be huayna capacity or pachacuti whichever one and the other one Tupac.

Even if for some reason we want a representative of the Vilcabamba period (which I personally don't see as particularly necessary), I think Manco Inca Yupanqui is perhaps a better candidate than Tupac Amaru. Manco led a very successful campaign of guerilla warfare against the Spanish and their allies and established the Neo-Inca State at Vilcabamba in the first place. Since the entire Vilcabamba period was more or less a state of rebellion that only delayed the inevitable, however, I again don't see it as particularly necessary. Pachacuti and Huayna Capac are still the best candidates for Inca leader--though there's no denying that Atahualpa is a "big personality," if you want a crazy guy dancing around the screen and sipping from a gilded skull (good luck getting that past the ESRB ).

 

[reddishrecue]

Even if for some reason we want a representative of the Vilcabamba period (which I personally don't see as particularly necessary), I think Manco Inca Yupanqui is perhaps a better candidate than Tupac Amaru. Manco led a very successful campaign of guerilla warfare against the Spanish and their allies and established the Neo-Inca State at Vilcabamba in the first place. Since the entire Vilcabamba period was more or less a state of rebellion that only delayed the inevitable, however, I again don't see it as particularly necessary. Pachacuti and Huayna Capac are still the best candidates for Inca leader--though there's no denying that Atahualpa is a "big personality," if you want a crazy guy dancing around the screen and sipping from a gilded skull (good luck getting that past the ESRB ).

Im not sure who it was making Macchu Piccu and all the fortifications, but the Inca did put up a good fight against the invading Spanish.

 

[Zaarin]

Im not sure who it was making Macchu Piccu and all the fortifications, but the Inca did put up a good fight against the invading Spanish.

Machu Picchu was probably built for Pachacuti. The Inca did put up a good fight against the Spanish, but Vilcabamba was still the nadir of their bright but brief civilization.

 

[BuchiTaton]

Most people seem to agree that a "pre-european contact" leader for mesoamerican and andine civs would show better their peak and uniqueness. Still a leader from the resistance peoriod also have good reasons to be represented since they could show some ingored aspect of their history:
- THEY DID NOT DISSAPEARED: You would not believe the amount of people that think that the peoples and cultures like the Maya and "Inca" were completely destroyed with the spanish conquest. They dont, and it not help for the rights of millions of modern of native peoples to think they dont even exist anymore.
- The spanish conquest was not easy: The conquest did not ended in Mesoamerica with the Fall of Tenochtitlan neither the Andes with the Massacre of Cajamarca, the whole process was way longer and more complex, included the incorparation of native technology by spaniards and spanish techs by natives. And even after periods of submision native uprisigns have emerged in the 19th and 20th century.
- The spanish colonial rule was possible only by the support of native ally ruling class: From the first moments of the conquest onwards native ally troops represented most of the militar force of the spanish expeditions, even between the defeaded spanish enemies like the "Aztec" and "Inca" it was needed to keep as much as possible their royal and noble families as mediators to hold authority over the vast number of native commoners. So it was not rare to see huge part of the Caciques as spanish supporters even by the time of LA's independence movements.

By the way we already had Wihelmina as Neatherlands leader from a period of imperial decline and resistence to foreing occupation, when it is obvious that there are others Dutch leaders from more glorious periods.

 

[Patine]

- The spanish conquest was not easy: The conquest did not ended in Mesoamerica with the Fall of Tenochtitlan neither the Andes with the Massacre of Cajamarca, the whole process was way longer and more complex, included the incorparation of native technology by spaniards and spanish techs by natives. And even after periods of submision native uprisigns have emerged in the 19th and 20th century.

21st Century, actually. The Zapatista Liberation Front in Southern Mexico and, although more political than insurgent, the Movement for Socialism–Political Instrument for the Sovereignty of the Peoples in Bolivia, founded by former President Evo Morelos. In fact, I believe there is a strong Indigesimo aspect to the current protests in Peru, as well. This struggle is STILL ONGOING.

 

[reddishrecue]

Most people seem to agree that a "pre-european contact" leader for mesoamerican and andine civs would show better their peak and uniqueness. Still a leader from the resistance peoriod also have good reasons to be represented since they could show some ingored aspect of their history:
- THEY DID NOT DISSAPEARED: You would not believe the amount of people that think that the peoples and cultures like the Maya and "Inca" were completely destroyed with the spanish conquest. They dont, and it not help for the rights of millions of modern of native peoples to think they dont even exist anymore.
- The spanish conquest was not easy: The conquest did not ended in Mesoamerica with the Fall of Tenochtitlan neither the Andes with the Massacre of Cajamarca, the whole process was way longer and more complex, included the incorparation of native technology by spaniards and spanish techs by natives. And even after periods of submision native uprisigns have emerged in the 19th and 20th century.

Right, indigenous people weren't fully destroyed. They survived the conquest. Indigenous survive and Spanish conquer.

 

[BuchiTaton]

We already have a Great Colombia civ despite that name was for a period of 12 years, so the 35 years of the Neo-Inca Empire and the 68 years of the Cruzoob are worthy of post-contact Inca and Maya leaders.

- Manco Inca Yupanqui, on horse back, wearing a cuirass and brandishing a steel sword mixed with his inca imperial attire.
- Jacinto Pat, was one of the leaders of the 19th-20th century maya state of Cruzob, the most diplomatic and realistic leader of the movement. The Cruzob infantry using Enfield rifles could be his leader unique unit, for a modern twist on the maya UU.

 

[Zaarin]

Most people seem to agree that a "pre-european contact" leader for mesoamerican and andine civs would show better their peak and uniqueness. Still a leader from the resistance peoriod also have good reasons to be represented since they could show some ingored aspect of their history:
- THEY DID NOT DISSAPEARED: You would not believe the amount of people that think that the peoples and cultures like the Maya and "Inca" were completely destroyed with the spanish conquest. They dont, and it not help for the rights of millions of modern of native peoples to think they dont even exist anymore.
- The spanish conquest was not easy: The conquest did not ended in Mesoamerica with the Fall of Tenochtitlan neither the Andes with the Massacre of Cajamarca, the whole process was way longer and more complex, included the incorparation of native technology by spaniards and spanish techs by natives. And even after periods of submision native uprisigns have emerged in the 19th and 20th century.
- The spanish colonial rule was possible only by the support of native ally ruling class: From the first moments of the conquest onwards native ally troops represented most of the militar force of the spanish expeditions, even between the defeaded spanish enemies like the "Aztec" and "Inca" it was needed to keep as much as possible their royal and noble families as mediators to hold authority over the vast number of native commoners. So it was not rare to see huge part of the Caciques as spanish supporters even by the time of LA's independence movements.

By the way we already had Wihelmina as Neatherlands leader from a period of imperial decline and resistence to foreing occupation, when it is obvious that there are others Dutch leaders from more glorious periods.

I think this can be accomplished via indigenous peoples who retained their sovereignty while resisting, though--Civ5's Shoshone and Civ6's Mapuche are good examples. The Inca, Aztec, and Maya should, IMO, continue to represent the pinnacle of their respective civilizations--not least of all as a reminder of just how sophisticated Pre-Columbian societies could be.

 

[reddishrecue]

Inca Aztec and Maya survive many things suffered which make then still exist today. If it wasn't for that, these indigenous civilizations wouldn't have been heard from nor existed.

 

[BuchiTaton]

I think this can be accomplished via indigenous peoples who retained their sovereignty while resisting, though--Civ5's Shoshone and Civ6's Mapuche are good examples. The Inca, Aztec, and Maya should, IMO, continue to represent the pinnacle of their respective civilizations--not least of all as a reminder of just how sophisticated Pre-Columbian societies could be.

Other native peoples of the Americas do not solve it since I pointed from the start that the issue is specifically with Mesoamerican and Andean regions. The romanticization of these "lost civilizations", the absolute genocide portrayed in the spanish "black legend" (certainly it was in some degree but not a total one), and the obsession of some circles with a cultural/racial "pure" native loss into LA mixing are why we have a lot of foreign people thinking the natives from these regions are no more, and the average LA people that see their "ancient empires" as objects of national pride while the current natives are treated as second class people.

The Shoshone and Mapuche retained their sovereignty longer but not definitely. Pocatello's peace treaty was just a less paintfull surrender and Lautaro was killed and his head displayed by the spaniards. Also the dead of Atahualpa was far from mean the complete conquest, the fall of the Neo-Inca empire is seem by many as the real end of the Tawantinsuyu making Manco Inca Yupanqui a valid resistance figure.

Most importantly, either Inca and Maya can easily have BOTH leaders from pre and post conquest periods. This is why for example I said the Cruzob infantry would be a leader unique and not a civ unique unit. So in CIV7 Maya can have a secondary post-conquest leader while Inca have just the pre-contact one, and then in CIV8 this can be inverted to have two leaders for Inca civ and the regular one for Maya civ.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Other native peoples of the Americas do not solve it since I pointed from the start that the issue is specifically with Mesoamerican and Andean regions. The romanticization of these "lost civilizations", the absolute genocide portrayed in the spanish "black legend" (certainly it was in some degree but not a total one), and the obsession of some circles with a cultural/racial "pure" native loss into LA mixing are why we have a lot of foreign people thinking the natives from these regions are no more, and the average LA people that see their "ancient empires" as objects of national pride while the current natives are treated as second class people.

The Shoshone and Mapuche retained their sovereignty longer but not definitely. Pocatello's peace treaty was just a less paintfull surrender and Lautaro was killed and his head displayed by the spaniards. Also the dead of Atahualpa was far from mean the complete conquest, the fall of the Neo-Inca empire is seem by many as the real end of the Tawantinsuyu making Manco Inca Yupanqui a valid resistance figure.

Yupanqui wouldn't be my first choice, but I could potentially seem him if they wanted to portray the Inca as a resistance fighter. On the topic of the OP, and poll, I think he's too far removed to be considered as an Incan leader, if the Tupac being considered is Tupac Amaru II who led a rebellion in already Spanish Peru in the 1700s. At least that's where I'm coming from.

 

[Evie]

I'd argue the fact that you feel Tupac Amaru II is too far removed from the Incans to lead them is *precisely* the best case for inclusion: because it shatters the myth that the Incans stopped existing with the conquest.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

^ To anto-colonialism and even modern Anti-Amerianism in Latin America. Tupac Amaru II is their icon. and i don't know if that gamgster rapper viewed himself as Incan 'rebellion' against 'White American Tyranny' that to many South American peoples, USA is a successor to Old Spain.

 

[Zaarin]

In general, I don't think anti-imperialism is a very interesting theme in a game about empire-building. I mean, it's cool seeing Lautaro swinging around Philip's saber and all, but from a gameplay standpoint he's a very boring leader attached to a pretty fun civ. Similarly, I feel like either Tupac Amaru is going to be a boring leader attached to a hopefully interesting civ (Inca usually are, anyway). My perspective may be colored as an American, but educationally I think it's more worthwhile to emphasize that indigenous people built glorious empires without the help of aliens, Atlanteans, or wandering Egyptians than it is to emphasize that they lost insurrections (the loss of which wars and insurrections, in North America at least, has been a long-standing selling point of the inevitable superiority of Euro-American civilization). So I get what BuchiTaton and Evie are saying about emphasizing that indigenous people still exist and are still being colonized...but I don't see a way to do that without defining them by their conflict with Euro-American civilization, which I see as equally negative. (In general, I don't want to see civilizations defined by their relationships to other civilizations--this is among the many reasons I was happy to see Carthage, the anti-Rome, retired in favor of Phoenicia. However, this becomes especially true when that relationship is a dominance/resistance or colonizer/colonized relationship.)

 

[Evie]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I don't think he should be the leader.

I think Alexander's mistake is the best argument for having him, but I certainly agree there are better reasons to have other leaders.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I'd argue the fact that you feel Tupac Amaru II is too far removed from the Incans to lead them is *precisely* the best case for inclusion: because it shatters the myth that the Incans stopped existing with the conquest.

I mean the Incan Empire as a political state did is what I meant. Never once did I say the people stopped existing. I feel like it's a similar situation to having Nasser leading an Egyptian civ with all the uniques and abilities having to do with Ancient Egypt, to show that the Egyptians didn't stop existing either after their conquests.

 

[Evie]

I mean, no. The equivalent to Nasser leading modern Egypt would be a Peruvian president leading the Incans.

But the people who revolted under Tupac Amaru were still, fundamentally, the same Incan of the Incan Empire from a couple centuries earlier. Limiting a civilization to the existence of an independent state remains not a very functional.

Still far from my favorite Incan pick, but limiting the Incan civilization to the Incan state (or any civilization to their existence as an independent state) means artificially ignoring large parts of it.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Even if for some reason we want a representative of the Vilcabamba period (which I personally don't see as particularly necessary), I think Manco Inca Yupanqui is perhaps a better candidate than Tupac Amaru.

I agree with that, if it is to speak about the Incas of Vilcabamba, it should be better make Manco Inca. Manco was also an Inca under spanish crown and in Vilcabamba. I think it's very cool for this game show the resistence of Incas in Vilcabamba to destroy the concept of Spanish conquest as easy and fast. It can be fast on Mexico, but it isn't on Andes.

Most people seem to agree that a "pre-european contact" leader for mesoamerican and andine civs would show better their peak and uniqueness. Still a leader from the resistance peoriod also have good reasons to be represented since they could show some ingored aspect of their history:
- THEY DID NOT DISSAPEARED: You would not believe the amount of people that think that the peoples and cultures like the Maya and "Inca" were completely destroyed with the spanish conquest. They dont, and it not help for the rights of millions of modern of native peoples to think they dont even exist anymore.
- The spanish conquest was not easy: The conquest did not ended in Mesoamerica with the Fall of Tenochtitlan neither the Andes with the Massacre of Cajamarca, the whole process was way longer and more complex, included the incorparation of native technology by spaniards and spanish techs by natives. And even after periods of submision native uprisigns have emerged in the 19th and 20th century.
- The spanish colonial rule was possible only by the support of native ally ruling class: From the first moments of the conquest onwards native ally troops represented most of the militar force of the spanish expeditions, even between the defeaded spanish enemies like the "Aztec" and "Inca" it was needed to keep as much as possible their royal and noble families as mediators to hold authority over the vast number of native commoners. So it was not rare to see huge part of the Caciques as spanish supporters even by the time of LA's independence movements.

By the way we already had Wihelmina as Neatherlands leader from a period of imperial decline and resistence to foreing occupation, when it is obvious that there are others Dutch leaders from more glorious periods.

Exactly what I'm thinking off. The Inca not dissapeared, they survive while the Spanish for while. And just nerds of history now about that.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

^ And if Tupac Amaru II wins (how? or which European Powers would he meet to bring down Spanish Rule). Peru would be Monarchy country instead of Hispanic-dominated Republics (which they too, did claimed a torch of oppressions from their European Spanish former masters).... What would happen to Peru? would Pre-Catholic religion ever restored or would other Christians (Anglicanism or other Reformation Church that had been an anathema to Roman Catholicism for about four decades) repalced Catholicism instead?
And if Simon Bolivar (himself advocate to Republicanism for South Americans) had been an Icon of Mid Continental Americas for Anti-Imperialism. in which order did Tupac Amaru earned amongs South American Revolutionary Hall of Heroes? is there any political factions or armed insurgents there still consider themselves successors or adherents to him? did they still hate the US of A (viewed Presidents of the United States of America as bad as Bourbon Kings of Spain) and vice versa ?

 

[Henri Christophe]

^ And if Tupac Amaru II wins (how? or which European Powers would he meet to bring down Spanish Rule). Peru would be Monarchy country instead of Hispanic-dominated Republics (which they too, did claimed a torch of oppressions from their European Spanish former masters).... What would happen to Peru? would Pre-Catholic religion ever restored or would other Christians (Anglicanism or other Reformation Church that had been an anathema to Roman Catholicism for about four decades) repalced Catholicism instead?
And if Simon Bolivar (himself advocate to Republicanism for South Americans) had been an Icon of Mid Continental Americas for Anti-Imperialism. in which order did Tupac Amaru earned amongs South American Revolutionary Hall of Heroes? is there any political factions or armed insurgents there still consider themselves successors or adherents to him? did they still hate the US of A (viewed Presidents of the United States of America as bad as Bourbon Kings of Spain) and vice versa ?

If Tupac Amaru II wins he should of course be a civ, but he lost. That don't mean it is impossible of his family become to power, it was suggested by Belgrano the America become a monarchy under the leadership of Tupac Amaru III. But as we know from history, it was rejected.
But I think still have Tupac Amaru descendents around and the dream to have an Inca monarchy on South America still alive.