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Should Units have a limit on how often they can retreat during a turn?

Discussion in 'Wildmana Modmod' started by Sephi, Dec 21, 2009.

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Should Units have a limit on how often they can retreat during a turn?

Poll closed Jan 4, 2010.
  1. limit it to once a turn

    10 vote(s)
    35.7%
  2. limit it to twice a turn

    9 vote(s)
    32.1%
  3. no limits

    9 vote(s)
    32.1%
  4. whatever

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Sephi

    Sephi Deity

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    Units with 85% withdrawal can often withdraw several times a turn which isn't that realistic. But is it good for gameplay or not?
     
  2. JoMac

    JoMac Chieftain

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    47
    My opinion: As long as they have movement they should be allowed their withdrawal chance. Once they are out of movement - they win or they die.
     
  3. scutarii

    scutarii King

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2008
    Messages:
    745
    it is annoying for gameplay. Especially pegasuses. IMO totally unnecessary creatures in the game.

    Maybe some special creatures get two runs but no more.
     
  4. Goodgimp

    Goodgimp Warlord

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    I think there should at the very least be one defensive withdrawal chance even if movement is 0, otherwise you're going to reduce the use of the promotion by a fair amount. I like putting Withdraw on my scouts, it'd be annoying to have them with 0 withdraw chance just because I moved into a forest or a hill.
     
  5. Deon

    Deon Lt. of Mordor

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    I think that it would be nice to have 1 withdrawal + (# of first strikes/2).
     
  6. Fafnir13

    Fafnir13 King

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    Could tie it to the withdrawal promotion as well as giving units a certain number. I am kind of afraid of having something of an information overload at that point. You would have first strikes, defensive strikes, withdrawals, and all the regular stats.
    While it is somewhat annoying, I'm not sure I see any easy ways around it.
    Tying it to movement would make sense, but that would give problems to all the one move units that can withdraw (Defensive trait). And then there's the world units. Loki would need special rules. Mary Morbus (not that I EVER see her) would also need some consideration.
    I think I'm leaning towards leaving well enough alone. Instances of multiple withdrawals have been fairly rare for me.
     
  7. Deon

    Deon Lt. of Mordor

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    You don't fight hippus with that captain then, who gives them free 2 flanking promos :).
     
  8. Goodgimp

    Goodgimp Warlord

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    Salt Lake City, UT
    If its an issue with primarily one leader, then perhaps the Trait is what needs to change rather than core mechanics. I also haven't had a problem with defensive withdrawals, but I rarely fight against that particular Hippus leader either.
     
  9. Afterthought_bt

    Afterthought_bt Warlord

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2009
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    How about rather than a limit, the withdrawal chance in any later combat that turn decreases after each withdrawal? As a random number, say by 10% of original withdrawal chance.

    (So would go from 85% to 76.5% to 68% etc. Maybe it would have to be done by more. 10% was just a nice easy way to demonstrate what I mean! ;))
     
  10. Fafnir13

    Fafnir13 King

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    That would work pretty well, with the proper exceptions. I would make the decrease occur as a quartering or halving of the current withdraw chance instead of using a flat value. Otherwise it would still let some units withdraw several times.
     
  11. Afterthought_bt

    Afterthought_bt Warlord

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    Actually, that was the point! :p I would have said that the higher the original withdrawal rate, the more likely they should be to withdraw more than once. The thing about a big value - especially of the current withdrawal chance, is that it hurts a strong withdrawal stat far more than a weak one. Which seems wrong. Maybe it shouldn't be a percentage at all. Just a base 10% (85% -> 75% -> 65% etc.)
     
  12. admtanaka

    admtanaka Warlord

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    To be frank, multiple defensive withdrawals on a turn are really just annoying. I don't see much of a gameplay advantage in a complicated system of declining probability of withdrawal when a simple "once per turn" limit is probably best.
     
  13. DioAurion

    DioAurion Warlord

    Joined:
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    So-Cal
    I voted 2 per turn.

    While considering this I hope you consider the blitz + first strikes issue too. Which already has a coding solution from Freya.
     
  14. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

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    isn't that first strikes + blitz thingie fixes by denev's additional rules modmod?
     
  15. Fafnir13

    Fafnir13 King

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    It keeps the withdrawal promotions useful while making a string of withdraws less likely.
    You can't nueter it too much. The units that rely on it most, cavalry, are already on shaky ground when it comes to being truly useful (world units aside).
     
  16. Monkeyfinger

    Monkeyfinger Deity

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    This, and withdrawing should eat movement, preferably equal to what it would require to make that move normally.
     
  17. Fafnir13

    Fafnir13 King

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    Using movement doesn't work. Cavalry can't do their job if they are forced to move only one or two tiles to still have any chance of withdrawing. Then there's the defender trait. The weak chance of withdrawal is already not much of a boon. If it used movement, they wouldn't even be allowed that meager bonus unless they sat still.
    Worst yet, the "problem" would still persist. Any unit with the commando promotion (via raiders or its own level progression) would still be able to withdraw numerous times when roads were available. This would be especially true for the Hippus, thanks to their extra movement.
    Again, I rarely see this happen and don't consider it a real problem. The promotions involved are not an insignificant investment. Except, of course, for that one Hippus leader. If that's the problem, maybe we should consider balancing him before going after core combat systems.
     
  18. Monkeyfinger

    Monkeyfinger Deity

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    This topic is about defensive withdrawals. Offensive ones could remain unchanged (so still usable with only one movement.)

    A commando horseman would have to save some of its move if it wanted to whore out withdrawal, and even then it could reliably be stopped after a few attacks. That's an improvement over the current system where they can just charge however many spaces they want without penalty.
     
  19. Sephi

    Sephi Deity

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    how about this? (only for defensive withdrawal, usual limits like withdrawal %>0 still apply)
    • units can only withdraw if they have movement left or haven't withdrawn already the turn
    • withdrawal costs half of the movement points the unit has left (so units with very high movement have a few chances per turn)
    • worldunits aren't effected by this
     
  20. Afterthought_bt

    Afterthought_bt Warlord

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    I still feel that it hits the high withdrawal percentage a bit too hard... How about units above 50%withdrawal have 2 chances to withdraw, or the # of chances given by mp, whichever is higher?

    However - here is something I'd suggest, with or without that change:

    The presence on units on neighbouring squares reduces the withdrawal chance, by, say 10%. So if 'X' is the attacking units, and 'Y' the defending one trying to withdraw, . being a blank space:

    X.X
    XY.
    ...

    As 2 extra neighbouring tiles have the attacker's units (or perhaps as broad as enemy units to Y) there would be a 20% reduction on the defender's chance to withdraw. It would certainly help fix the problem with Pegasi - just two extra units near the pegasi would reduce 85% to 65%.
     

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