1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Should we pay China 16gpt for an ROP and alliance against Persia?

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Demo Game II: Polls' started by donsig, Dec 17, 2002.

?

Should we pay China 16gpt for an ROP and alliance against Persia?

Poll closed Dec 18, 2002.
  1. Yes

    5 vote(s)
    41.7%
  2. No

    6 vote(s)
    50.0%
  3. Abstain

    1 vote(s)
    8.3%
  1. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2001
    Messages:
    12,895
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
  2. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2001
    Messages:
    12,895
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Seeing as Xerxes will pay us 33g and 5gpt for a peace treaty I'm voting *no*.

    Let's take the Persian's gold, end the Phony Persian War and end the debates about allies against the Persians!
     
  3. Goonie

    Goonie Lonely End of the Rink

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2002
    Messages:
    3,312
    Location:
    Kingston
    I agree with donsig. Whats the point. If we are going to fight a war, and I dont think we should(refer to post in government section called Fanatika's Future) until we have a better infrastructure so that we can destroy our ennemies more effectively and quickly, we should atleast fight someone like the americans who's cities are closer to ours...
     
  4. eyrei

    eyrei Deity Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2001
    Messages:
    9,162
    Location:
    Cary, NC USA
    I hope you realize that we have alliances with three different civs against the Persians, and breaking them will destroy our reputation.

    Rome: 12 turns left (they are actually giving us 6gpt)
    England: 15 turns left
    Zululand: 3 turns left

    Also, I thought you were going to post a 'non-quick' poll on this subject. Since this is also a quick poll on the same topic, I say it is invalid.

    Just in case this one is deemed valid, I will continue my argument. The Chinese military is equal to ours, probably because of the creation of Riders. They are looking for someone to declare war on to make use of these impressive units, and we are a good target...lots of land, other wars going on, and no diplomatic agreements to break.

    The goal of an alliance against the Persians is to give them (the Chinese) another enemy, and reduce the chances of them attacking us by forcing them to consider the consequences of breaking diplomatic agreements. While there is no guarantee they will not declare war on us anyway, at least if they do, their reputation will be destroyed, and the chances of that occurring are reduced.

    Finally, a RoP with them will only serve to get their troops through our territory faster. They are going to walk where they please, and if we tell them to leave, we will have war.
     
  5. Plexus

    Plexus Architeuthidae puericomedentis

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2001
    Messages:
    7,011
    Location:
    S. Calif., U.S.A.
    An added 5 turns won't really effect our chances to get peace, it may even increase what we will get... or the Persians will be destroyed. :)
     
  6. Cyc

    Cyc Looking for the door...

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2002
    Messages:
    14,736
    Location:
    Behind you
    Sorry, donsig. I can't see trashing our rep. We have the other alliances to think about. eyrei is right about the diplomatic agreement with China, it will help our situation. To top it off, because of the alliances we've signed, Persia has gone from having the strongest armies to a nation with much weaker armies. We can owe that to Rome, Zululand, and England. I'm voting yes and hoping the Chinese find someone other than us to war with.

    Also, if we are going to have an ROP with China, let's get a very mobile unit down there in their territory to update our maps.
     
  7. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2001
    Messages:
    12,895
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    We can't make peace with Persia because we have allies against Persia. So let's make another alliance so we can continue the Phony Persian War another 20 turns! Our treasury has already been trashed by this series of alliances. We wasted gold that could have went into our army. If we had pikemen and knights instead of spearmen and horsemen our military strength would be enhanced. Reputation, smeputation. How many countries have broken alliances with us already? Are their people crying about reputation?

    China, if anyone cares, is south of India. There is lots of jungle down there. If you are worried about China the answer is to upgrade our units and get some on the southern border. Keep friendly relations with India. If China does attack us we could seek alliances with India and perhaps Babylon. The answer to the Chinese threat is not to prolong the war with Persia!

    As for a quick poll, well, what can I say eyrei? It was your job to do a proper poll along time ago. YOU want an alliance with China and you don't give a darn what the rest of us think. Rather than risk a poll where your proposition has a good chance of being voted down you simply posted your instructions to make the alliance. Not one word from you about how this alliance was voted down in the chat. I'm not a big fan of spot votes but we had 14 citizens vote in that one. That's not a full quorum but it is impressive for a chat vote. This poll shows that there is not unanimous support for your proposal. It shows how divided our citizens are. In light of that you should reconsider and remove your instructions to make this alliance.
     
  8. Chieftess

    Chieftess Moderator Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2002
    Messages:
    24,160
    Location:
    Baltimore
    I said no to the poll.

    For the alliences, we should just let them run out, and sue for peace in the next turn chat (not today's).
     
  9. eyrei

    eyrei Deity Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2001
    Messages:
    9,162
    Location:
    Cary, NC USA
    We can't make peace with Persia because we have allies against Persia. So let's make another alliance so we can continue the Phony Persian War another 20 turns! Our treasury has already been trashed by this series of alliances. We wasted gold that could have went into our army. If we had pikemen and knights instead of spearmen and horsemen our military strength would be enhanced. Reputation, smeputation. How many countries have broken alliances with us already? Are their people crying about reputation?



    The polls for past alliances were nearly unanimous. Had we actually made this alliance last turn chat, per my instructions, there would only be a 2 turn discrepancy between the Chinese and English alliances. We did not waste that gold, it kept our army from having to fight. And yes, this war is 'Phony'. We are using it to keep other civs off of our backs.

    China, if anyone cares, is south of India. There is lots of jungle down there. If you are worried about China the answer is to upgrade our units and get some on the southern border. Keep friendly relations with India. If China does attack us we could seek alliances with India and perhaps Babylon. The answer to the Chinese threat is not to prolong the war with Persia!


    The AI is quite willing to build roads in the jungle. And, BTW, once we see those riders, and we don't have diplomatic agreements with them, it will be too late. They will already have a target, and if it is us, there will be nothing we can do about it. They also are not going to declare war before they start moving their troops north, so saying that we will have plenty of time to prepare is just not true.

    As for a quick poll, well, what can I say eyrei? It was your job to do a proper poll along time ago. YOU want an alliance with China and you don't give a darn what the rest of us think. Rather than risk a poll where your proposition has a good chance of being voted down you simply posted your instructions to make the alliance. Not one word from you about how this alliance was voted down in the chat. I'm not a big fan of spot votes but we had 14 citizens vote in that one. That's not a full quorum but it is impressive for a chat vote. This poll shows that there is not unanimous support for your proposal. It shows how divided our citizens are. In light of that you should reconsider and remove your instructions to make this alliance.

    The reason a quick poll was posted is because the discussion was still active two days before the chat, so I waited an extra day and posted a quick poll. I believe, legally, my instructions were still valid. Obviously, they did not have to take place on the first turn of the chat. I did intend them that way, however that was made impossible because other actions were taken first. Also, my feelings regarding the validity of spot votes are well known. They have no validity on the forums, thus I do not mention them.

    So, since a few citizens disagree, I have to remove my instructions? I think not...that would make the game unworkable. I am however, willing to abide by the results of this poll rather than debate its questionable validity.
     
  10. Eklektikos

    Eklektikos Eponymous

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2002
    Messages:
    2,635
    Location:
    London, UK
    I voted yes. Given the fact that the Chinese appear to be threatening our borders it would be a good idea to give them something to distract them since, as Eyrei has said, we make a very attractive target at the moment with our many cities and our military stretched as far as it will go. Yes it is possible that they may cop out on the alliance a second time, but doing so will hurt their reputation severely - making it extremely unlikely that they will be able to form an alliance against us if they do eventually choose to take us on. Ultimately, they are a far closer and scarier foe than the Persians - and I'd rather remain in a "phony" war with the latter than face Riders on the battlefield in our current state.
     
  11. amirsan

    amirsan King of all Kings

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2002
    Messages:
    6,530
    Location:
    NYC to Connectcut...
    :king:
    We should keep the war going. I agree with eyrei, if we make peace we will lose future
    treaties with our current allies. We should also make friends with China and avoid future wars
    with them.
     
  12. FortyJ

    FortyJ Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2001
    Messages:
    2,186
    Location:
    South Florida
    I wouldn't be opposed to declaring war on China and getting India and Babylon in on our side. However, this may be somewhat rash at the moment.

    I disagree with the assertion that the Chinese are iching to find a target to battle-test their Rider units. The Chinese were just recently in our territory and have since turned towards home. If they do declare war, it will take time for their Riders to traverse the jungle that separates our two nations.

    Also, if China does declare war, and I doubt this will happen, we can and will bring in our other allies, including India, Babylon, the Iroquois, and Russia (if necessary), into the fight on our side. China will be facing overwhelming numbers before their first Riders can reach our borders.
     
  13. Chieftess

    Chieftess Moderator Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2002
    Messages:
    24,160
    Location:
    Baltimore
    Fun. 6-6. Thing will probably get 'interesting' once donsig sees this...
     
  14. eyrei

    eyrei Deity Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2001
    Messages:
    9,162
    Location:
    Cary, NC USA
    This poll was tied 6-6 with one abstain at the time of the turn chat. The tie was broken in favor of signing the alliance by the FA leader (myself). This poll is now closed.
     
  15. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2001
    Messages:
    12,895
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    What a bunch of BS. We're supposed to be going around conquering anyone we want to and we're worried about someone declaring war on us. instead of saying *Bring it on* to the world we pay 'em gold cause we're shakin' in our boots!

    You've lost my vote as FA leader eyrei. You copped out on this poll and your weaseling explanation (for not posting a proper poll) don't cut it. Yeah, I understand your reasons for the original quick poll. But why didn't you post a proper discussion and poll beginning Sunday when the alliance was voted down? Why? I already said why: YOU wanted this alliance and you don't give a rats arse what the rest of us think! Why don't you stand up and admit that's the way it is? When your instructions weren't followed and the alliance was voted down the situation should have been reassessed.

    Yeah, China can build roads in the jungle and we could upgrade our military and get defensive forces posted in the east and south. We also could have ended the Phony Persian War, made peace with Japan, attacked Babylon and paid for real alliances with India and China. We might as well forget about conquering anyone else, switch to republic and build colosseums.
     
  16. eyrei

    eyrei Deity Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2001
    Messages:
    9,162
    Location:
    Cary, NC USA
    Originally posted by donsig


    What a bunch of BS. We're supposed to be going around conquering anyone we want to and we're worried about someone declaring war on us. instead of saying *Bring it on* to the world we pay 'em gold cause we're shakin' in our boots!


    A war on several fronts would be devastating. Once we have secured our southern border, then we can take a tougher stance towards the Chinese.

    You've lost my vote as FA leader eyrei. You copped out on this poll and your weaseling explanation (for not posting a proper poll) don't cut it. Yeah, I understand your reasons for the original quick poll. But why didn't you post a proper discussion and poll beginning Sunday when the alliance was voted down? Why? I already said why: YOU wanted this alliance and you don't give a rats arse what the rest of us think! Why don't you stand up and admit that's the way it is? When your instructions weren't followed and the alliance was voted down the situation should have been reassessed.

    Obviously, it is not just me that wants this alliance, though you can keep claiming that if you like. While you are not alone in your opinion, neither am I.

    Yeah, China can build roads in the jungle and we could upgrade our military and get defensive forces posted in the east and south. We also could have ended the Phony Persian War, made peace with Japan, attacked Babylon and paid for real alliances with India and China. We might as well forget about conquering anyone else, switch to republic and build colosseums.

    The main objection I have with a Chinese war is that they do not border us, and any land we took would be more a liability than anything else. We would spend a huge amount of resources defending our border, and gain almost nothing. We can still upgrade our military, as we are still making a significant amount of gold.

    And finally, please stop with the accusations. They are unsupported, and unwarranted.
     
  17. Plexus

    Plexus Architeuthidae puericomedentis

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2001
    Messages:
    7,011
    Location:
    S. Calif., U.S.A.
    @donsig- True, I just said yes to hope to improve relations, I really don't think that we should worry about 5 more turns of a 'phony' war, (much less about the state of our treasury, we're making 102gpt, afterall).
     
  18. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2001
    Messages:
    12,895
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Um, Plexus, the only reason we're making that much is because we have both the science and luxury rates set at zero percent. We might be able to get away with no lux spending for a while but if we keep the science slider at zero we will fall behind in the tech race.
     
  19. Plexus

    Plexus Architeuthidae puericomedentis

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2001
    Messages:
    7,011
    Location:
    S. Calif., U.S.A.
    We already have fallen behind, besides, the alliance has already paid off... Babylon has entered the war due to a China/ Babylon alliance.
     
  20. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2001
    Messages:
    12,895
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    A war on several fronts would be devastating. Once we have secured our southern border, then we can take a tougher stance towards the Chinese.


    They only wars we are in right now are with Japan and Persia. Japan will make peace any time we want and have offered to threat to us. Persian units have yet to be seen and Xerxes will make peace as well. if China did attack us we could end both current wars and immediately seek allies against China (or visa versa if reputation matters). We could be stationing troops in the south even if it means rushing a few. Giving China a free pass into our land (via ROP) is not something we should do if we're afraid of them.

    Obviously, it is not just me that wants this alliance, though you can keep claiming that if you like. While you are not alone in your opinion, neither am I.

    I never said it was just you who wanted the alliance. I will try rephrasing what I said so you can understand it:

    YOU want the alliance so you posted the instructions to make it irregardless of whether the rest of us want it or not. I understand there are others who want the alliance. I think you understand as well that there are those who don't want it. That's what irks me the most and that's why you've lost my vote. You just went ahead and posted your instructions without discussion or polling once the situation changed and you had clear signals that the alliance might not be wanted by the citizens!

    The main objection I have with a Chinese war is that they do not border us, and any land we took would be more a liability than anything else. We would spend a huge amount of resources defending our border, and gain almost nothing. We can still upgrade our military, as we are still making a significant amount of gold.

    So who wants a war with China? Not me. But I do think that if China attacked it wouldn't be the end of Fanatika. I also don't think the war would be long. You may want to read my reply to Plexus above. We're making alot of gold because our science rate is at zero. The longer it stays at zero the further behind we get in the tech race. The main reason we can still upgrade our military is the fact that we haven't done it already! We could have used the gold we spent buying alliances to do the upgrades.

    And finally, please stop with the accusations. They are unsupported, and unwarranted.

    You posted a turn chat instruction without proper discussion or polling. That is my accusation. It is definately supported because there was no discussion and if it weren't for the poll that I posted there would have been no poll at all. The accusations are also warranted because I am a citizen of Fanatika and I have the right (via free speech) to call on elected officials to answer for their actions.
     

Share This Page