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Shouldn't exploration ability be limited during the Ancient times era?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Marla_Singer, May 15, 2010.

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Is discovering the whole world in the Ancient Times an issue to you?

  1. Yes, and I like the strength loss idea to prevent it

    23 vote(s)
    12.3%
  2. Yes, but something else should be done in order to prevent it

    94 vote(s)
    50.3%
  3. I agree there's a historical flaw but trying to prevent it would do more harm than good

    40 vote(s)
    21.4%
  4. No, things are great the way they are!

    24 vote(s)
    12.8%
  5. Other/dunno

    6 vote(s)
    3.2%
  1. The Rusty Gamer

    The Rusty Gamer Prince

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    Well, if you want to really slow down early exploration, perhaps the Settlers model? I mean, every new unexplored region took some time to uncover.
     
  2. The Rusty Gamer

    The Rusty Gamer Prince

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    Yikes! I just looked at the scout unit XML and I couldn't believe what I saw - the scout has 2 movement points. Change it to 1. Simplest change ever!

    I also noticed there's a hidden nationality flag for units. Perhaps if early units had this there would not be an early encounter with civilizations. Currently that flag is only used for one unit - privateers.
     
  3. Alki

    Alki Prince

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    Another option would be to remove the active part of exploration and leave it up to the ai to calculate depending on whatever factors you like.
     
  4. idle

    idle Warlord

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    Firstly, the best solution for prolonged exploration is bigger (and I mean HUGE) maps. In SMAC, I'm usually well into the mid-game before I've explored the whole of planet. And getting to satellites usually reveal a couple of tiles as well.

    Secondly, the maintenance solution feels really gamey. It is a good solution for balance and the realism of difficulty of operating great distances from the homeland, but I would rather it be done in a different way. It doesn't add the element of danger to exploration in the same way for example more dangerous animals or barbs do.

    I really like the barbarian solution. Those of you that have tried the excellent mod Legends of Revolution have maybe tried the option "Start as minor civs" which means that until a civ discovers Writing, there can be no diplomacy. Since you are effectively at war, you can attack other civs' scouts and warriors, but you get a diplomatic penalty for doing so when relations are set up later ("-1 past events prove your bad nature towards us", or something like that.) I've found that the AI doesn't care (why would it?), so it makes for a frankly scary ancient era. The side-effect is that exploration is somewhat hampered until normal diplomatic relations are set up.

    The "scouts-as-privateers" idea is the best one IMO, apart from the "start as barbarians" from the LoR mod.
     
  5. The Rusty Gamer

    The Rusty Gamer Prince

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    Well, I think we need to do SOME interaction as regards to exploring or it wouldn't be a game, would it? More like a simulation.

    There's another variable I've noticed - bNoRevealMapb - wonder what that does. I'm experimenting. Hopefully it means you can tell a unit that it can't explore the unknown part of the world.
     
  6. Roland Johansen

    Roland Johansen Deity

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    I like the idea of exploring a tile taking time. In essence, it makes exploring or mapping a tile similar to the worker action of improving at tile, only the exploration can be done to tiles adjacent to the exploring unit. It improves the status of a tile from grey and unexplored to explored. One could make scouts and explorers better at this job, letting them perform the job in less time. Because it takes more time, it will also be more costly as more exploring units are required to map a large area quickly and they need to be outside of your borders for extended amounts of time. I don't think the exploring unit should be undetectable during that time. It should be just as much at risk as other units outside of your borders.

    In addition, relations with distant civilisations could require some prerequisites which are hard to meet at the start of the game (expensive embassies, limits due to distance, dependence on certain technologies) and map trading could be delayed a bit and both civilisations need to have the required technology for map trading.
     
  7. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    I think that having Other civs=Barbarians is the best since it Stops Both expansion+exploration at certain points it doesn't just slow it.

    I'd say adjacent borders, or if their cities are in some radius of your cities then it would allow you to establish contact with them and treat them as another civ... making the area near them safe to travel.

    Add a good deal more 'local' barbs ie ones that behave like animals to the empty spots and then you have a limit.

    Having the 'explore' action sounds interesting though... it makes 'mapmaking' something active rather than just moving my unit around. Later game (Mideval-renaissance) explorers might be able to do it multiple times per turn
     
  8. The Rusty Gamer

    The Rusty Gamer Prince

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    I've been experimenting with my own little MOD. Early units cannot move to unexplored area. This includes settlers, workers, warriors and archers. This is what switching on bNoRevealMapb for a unit does, and it works!
     
  9. Yakk

    Yakk Cheftan

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    Nope. Nobodies explorers manage to circumnavigate the globe.

    It just doesn't happen, with a high enough density of barbarians/animals.

    Well, I guess it could -- but it would be winning the lottery. Like a single warrior defeating 5 tanks in a row: possible, but unlikely.
     
  10. LDiCesare

    LDiCesare Deity

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    +1.
    Other civs = barbarians until you have cultural borders touch or you send an emissary/diplomat unit, or one of you conquers a city of the other.
    Thiss sounds like a very good feature to me.
     
  11. epicivfreak

    epicivfreak Warlord

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    I'm not sure what you're saying here. I never intended there to be extra button pressing, you just move the scout into a black tile and he auto-explores it for the next 2 turns or whatever and then he pops up in the unit queue when he's ready to be moved again. At that point you could start the process over.

    Preach on brotha, I like the what-if as well. I would add that I would also like to see everything that's realistically possible (that is if it's possible in the real world), including in Civ5 as a feature. I disagree with those that seem to think we can't take any realistic historical point of inclusion - like civil war for example - and turn it into something fun. I know it can be done. So to that end, I want even more history crammed into my "Historical Replaying Machine" that we call Civ5.
     
  12. V. Soma

    V. Soma long time civ fan

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    Ideas about exploration (EDIT: sorry if I repeat idea already mentioned), to enhance the use of explorer units (i.e. scout, explorer):

    1.
    Only explorer unit can enter the "border" tiles of already explored land
    AND
    reveal new tiles of the fog around it.

    War units can enter the border tiles but not reveal new ones
    - and also cannot enter the black fog...

    2.
    Revealed tile does not reveal resources automatically:
    explorer unit need to "work" on "looking for resource" on a given tile for a given amount of tile
    (1 or 2 or 3 turns, maybe: it could depend on land type and game speed).

    Those tiles not "researched" are visually differentiated from the ones are:
    less detailed geography, perhaps,
    and also, some sign on it, when it is turned on ("?" mark, or whatever).

    There would be explorer unit both for land and sea...
     
  13. Commander Bello

    Commander Bello Say No 2 Net Validations

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    One thing to be kept in mind is that exploration is what makes the early turns less tedious.

    If there isn't any exploration, then the first 20 turns are meaningless, since you will have to wait for something to happen - your first unit being build, whatever.
    Therefore, exploration is something to make the game "live" during the initial turns. Fun trumps over everything else, don't forget about this.

    Based on this, I would leave exploratian as it is.

    So, nothing new? Just adopt the Civ4 exploration system?

    No.

    Any explored tile (hex) which is not within the visibility range of at least one of your units or next to your borders will turn "brown" after 10 turns (numbers just as examples).

    After another 5 turns, it would get a colour which loosely is connected to it's "nature". Greenland and forsts would be "greenish", plains and deserts would be "sandish", lakes and sea "blueish" and so forth.
    Yet, the adjacent tiles might adopt such colour as well, although their nature would be different. This would be based on a certain percentage.

    This would simulate that the knowledge about the real nature will get lost over time, distorted by ancient tales and so on.

    The effect would be that regardless of how far your explorers have come, if you cannot settle the land, you will lose the knowledge about it. It would become mysterious once again, only giving you a vague idea of what possibly has been there.

    To keep the knowledge available, you would have to send out explorers again - which (maybe based on a certain technology or cultural state) could be automated to run over such areas.
    You may have to search for the exact location of that cluster of ressources far away again.

    With technologies like writing you could either lower the distortion rate for the above mentioned adjacent hexes or you could increase the number of turns until the revealed land will "brown out".
    Map making would keep them revealed and only very late in the game you could trade maps.

    Just some rough ideas.
     
  14. The Rusty Gamer

    The Rusty Gamer Prince

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    1. Can be done now in Civ 4. I've been tentatively working on a MOD that does this very thing.

    2. A bit like the game Imperalism and Imperalism 2. I think this might be a tedious and rather unnecessary process.
     
  15. V. Soma

    V. Soma long time civ fan

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    hm, yes, maybe tedious = unfun... OK, I can admit that...
     
  16. LDiCesare

    LDiCesare Deity

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    This has already been proposed in another thread, and I'll answer the same: This mechanism is something I would hate. It means if you keep an old save, you can reopen it. It means you more or less have to play one turn every day not more in order to actually forget what you can't see. It makes the ai have to deal with a big problem: Does it cheat by not forgetting or knowing the map, or is it put to a disadvantage by not having the brain of the player, who remembers what was over there in that important spot? If you spot a sea square at the other end of the continent, you'll remember it was there because it's such an important information. It may not show on the map, but you'll remember it.

    The issue isn't about the first 20 turns. Unless you're playing on a very small map, you don't go from China to Italy in 20 turns. But you do in 100 turns, and by turn 100, you probably have something to do beside exploration.
     
  17. }{ELL/\/()

    }{ELL/\/() Warlord

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    i know I played a civ 4 mod where if you didnt build an embassy with a civ you would lose contact with them so you really only had regular contact with neighbors until you got the tech and the money to build embassies
     
  18. sampo

    sampo Chieftain

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    Yakk. I loved your mod for the Vanilla Civ. Have you updated it to BTS 3.19?
     
  19. attackfighter

    attackfighter Emperor

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    It's a lot more likely than you imply. As long as there's no ocean in the way, it's fairly easy, especially if it's a smaller map. Just choose the right upgrades and stick to forests or hills, you'll have like <95% odds of beating any animals except bears (which you can avoid) and you're unlikely to encounter 20 animals so the odds are quite favorable.
     
  20. Yakk

    Yakk Cheftan

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    Oh, I also made animals somewhat nastier. Some gain bonuses to attack you in hills, others gain bonuses to attack you in forests, some have forest-walk, etc.

    And with the animal density I set up, you are very likely to see 20+ animals. Many of them won't attack you (low attack percentage), but you'll see them.

    ...

    I did update it, but there are some graphics glitches. In particular, my stags keep on looking like horse archers from certain angles). I should fix it, eh?
     

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