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Shrine > Monument

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Xiao Xiong, Sep 13, 2013.

  1. Xiao Xiong

    Xiao Xiong Prince

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    I think building a shrine is WAY more important than building a monument.

    A shrine gets you a pantheon, which can significantly boost the value of tiles in your main cities, or other benefits. Also gives you a shot at getting a good religion. Add on some of the beliefs you may get and the shrine is a future source of food or happiness.

    A monument just gives you culture. Nice. But not decisive. A shrine can give you a real edge.

    I only build monuments before shrines now if I have a hammer happy start that lets me get the monument out before pottery, or maybe a turn after.

    Generally, when I research pottery, I interrupt whatever I was building to rush the shrine. Getting it a few turns earlier may make the difference of a pantheon now, with good choices, or one way late where the best choices are already gone.
     
  2. homegrown

    homegrown Missionary of Sorenism

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    Sorry, you're wrong. A monument doesn't "just give you culture". It gives you tiles. Tiles that contain food, hammers and gold. And if you're lucky, faith and even more culture. Without tiles, your people starve and your shrine never gets built. The only time you shouldn't build a monument first, is if you're getting the monument free from Legalism.
     
  3. Byzantine Bomb

    Byzantine Bomb Warlord

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    Homegrown makes a good point though I myself like the free monument from Legalism which allows me to build a shrine first. The sooner you establish a religion, the better.
     
  4. Yzman

    Yzman Deity

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    I say the sooner you get a monument up the better, so have to strongly disagree. There is just too many benefits from getting culture early, namely social policies.
     
  5. Matthew.

    Matthew. Deity

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    Depends on difficulty for me. On higher levels I find it more trouble than it is worth to try and establish a religion, thus the shrine is largely useless. Pantheons can potentially be great, but if it is 45+ turns before you get one, it may not be long before an opposing Civ starts converting your cities. I'd rather use the hammers and gold maintenance on something more reliable, like an archer.

    Then again, on lower difficulties I will just build Stonehenge and still put off shrines until later.
     
  6. Xiao Xiong

    Xiao Xiong Prince

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    On immortal I almost always build the henge and I almost always get it. The AI doesn't seem to prioritize it the way that they go for GL. I build a shrine too, popping the monument from legalism.

    I have no problem establishing a religion. Spreading it can be tough but I can maintain it I my core cities. If I have to, by building the grand temple.

    My theory is that you want to maximize the value of the hammers and culture you spend. Taking legalism but getting no immediate benefit because you already built the monument seems inefficient.

    Equally, the shrine gets multipliers from religion that increase the value of the hammers spent on it, if you take feed the world, ancestor worship, etc.

    Faith production isn't only for religion either. Later on your can start buying GP with it.
     
  7. Olleus

    Olleus Deity

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    I build a monument in my capital just after my opening scout. Filling up tradition quickly is just too important, and it takes forever to get the opener if you're just relying on the +1 culture. Monarchy and landed elite effectively double the output of your capital, getting ASAP is the number one priority. Unless maybe I'm playing as Byzantium or something like that.
     
  8. Matthew.

    Matthew. Deity

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    Meh, I don't see it as that important. Monarchy/Landed still comes quickly and there is an opportunity cost to consider. For example, a second scout greatly increases the chance of finding a 20 culture ruin, among other bonuses.
     
  9. Xiao Xiong

    Xiao Xiong Prince

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    Sometimes I start the monument, then interrupt the build to get the shrine out, then complete the monument.

    Often that means getting the shrine four turns earlier, which frequently can be the difference between getting a pantheon for 15 or 20 faith, or having to wait for 30 or 35.

    I also sometimes build the second scout, then shrine, and pop the monument. The extra scout speeds up meeting religious CS as well, greatly increasing the odds of getting a pantheon early.

    The culture bonuses of a pantheon or religion will usually give you more social policies than the monument.
     
  10. Gyra Solune

    Gyra Solune King

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    Shrines are prospectively powerful, but unreliable, and unless you really push it and make sacrifices early on for its sake, you are unlikely to get exactly what you want. Monuments are more reliable, but your options are more set in stone and not quite as potentially powerful.

    ...though really, I've never come across this problem because if I'm going for religion, I go ahead and get them both. That way I can push Piety and have an actual Faith base.
     
  11. FeiLing

    FeiLing Deity

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    I've been building shrines before on deity. Every time I was 1-3 turns away from getting a pantheon another AI would found theirs and delay mine. Until finally after 40 or so turns of being away only 1-3 turns from founding a pantheon constantly the game runs out of religions/pantheons. GG.

    Then in other games (of lesser difficulty) I actually do not want too much early faith because I'll auto-generate more Great Prophets than I need resulting in being able to buy less Great People in the Industrial age.
     
  12. Xiao Xiong

    Xiao Xiong Prince

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    I don't play on deity because it feels like solving a puzzle more than playing a game, you have to make optimal choices most of which amount to exploiting AI weakness.

    That is true to a extent at every level, I guess, but on immortal I can still role play a bit.

    On immortal I always get a pantheon and usually get a competitive religion. Every now and then I found the first religion, usually in connection to getting desert folklore and building the henge.
     
  13. kb27787

    kb27787 Deity

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    Sure... if sacred path is not taken and you have 4 citrus and 4 bananas.... who needs monuments :lol:
    It's all up to the dirt (if you have 5 food resources in your first ring you don't need monument culture) on the other hand if a juicy NW is in the 3rd ring for example... or most your resources are 2nd ring with only one wheat in the first...

    Oh and Aztecs do not need monuments and can rush sacred path under a typical spawn (open piety instead). One reason I like them. Maya with their pyramids (prioritize them over monuments if you see a good culture pantheon)...
     
  14. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    On this topic, I usually choose Tradition and will get free Monuments, rendering this moot.
    When going Piety instead, a Monument in the capital will be my first build to get a decent pace. In addition in this case, I wait to start the Shrine until I have the Piety opener so that it will be cheaper. Going this way Shrines are so cheap they should be the first build for all other cities.
     
  15. ahawk

    ahawk King

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    This is really quite dependent on difficulty level:

    On Emperor and down, it's fairly effective to take a shrine first rather than a monument if you don't build a monument prior to being able to build a shrine (usually because you were building a worker, scout, or whatever). On Emperor and down, you stand a reasonable chance of founding a religion with as little as two or three shrines up in a timely fashion.

    On Immortal and Deity (which I play both far less than Emperor), I prefer a monument, since you begin to get clobbered in religion at those levels and will either fail to found a religion or will get spammed with missionaries and Great Prophets before you can even get an Inquisitor out.

    The only catches are
    1) if you get a faith-mountain. In those cases, a monument is almost always better if you see the faith-mountain early enough and know you stand a great chance of settling it. But because you often won't see the mountain early enough, it's not a tremendous factor normally.
    2) you go tradition.
     
  16. apotheoser

    apotheoser Prince

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    For me it depends on the start. If I really need a particular pantheon choice, then I'm going shrine. If my start doesn't have resources that benefit from a pantheon (copper and salt, for example) or has a spread of resources that can't be improved by a single pantheon, then I'm not going to get an early shrine at all.

    But if I start and there's, for example, 2 deer and 2 furs, I'm definitely getting a shrine ASAP, because securing the +4 food from the camps is worth it. Or if there's like 2-3 gold/silver.
     
  17. Xiao Xiong

    Xiao Xiong Prince

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    It is relatively easy to get henge on immortal, and I am often the first or second to found a religion. Pop a missionary before the second prophet and convert a pair of strategically located cities (your own or not) and your religion will dominate your continent.

    You may have to take out the capital of a competing religion, or otherwise prioritize its downfall. In my last game I bribed nebby to attack Morocco and that effectively stopped the spread of Islam. Nebby then happily adopted my religion and voted for it to become the world religion.
     
  18. ahawk

    ahawk King

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    That's true: in any position where it's possible (and safe) to chop Stonehenge, that can usually be enough for early faith if there isn't a faith-mountain around.
     
  19. FrostK

    FrostK Prince

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    100% agree. You should rush pantheon if there is one very good for u, i.e. desert start or juble start... But in general pantheon can wait, most of pantheons require techs and workers. I.e. +2 from quarries or even +1+1 from gold and silver - yes it gives bonus right away, but u usually do not work 0 food-2 hammer tile in cap.
     
  20. Dentalfury

    Dentalfury Warlord

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    I typically build prioritize building a shrine as quickly as I can. I always tech it right away regardless of the game i'm playing because having a decent pantheon can give that little edge you need in the early game undercut your competition right from the get go.

    My typical build order is Scout --> Partial build Monument--> Shrine as soon as the tech finishes --> Finish Monument ---> ?
     

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