Sid Pangea standard 70

freakystuff

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Dear all,

I was inspired by the Magnificent 7 post as the post created lots of fun for me while reading the past few years. I went all the way to revive my account in order to share this start I just generated. Like most people I beat Deity with fresh water 1 cow start.

This start is so pretty that I want to share it with all the fanatics out there.

I have no experience in playing or hosting a succession game. I want to put the save file into the hands of some great players who has experience with hosting a succession game and is interested in playing this game. Gathering very good players could be extremely difficult but even so, sharing this file feels like a must to me. Edit: I just attached the save file.

Some experts please come in to throw their thoughts on what to do with this great start, and the save file itself.


Settings:

Standard size Sid Pangea 70% water
All middle options for land type.
I am 95% sure that victory condition is conquest only.
Preserve random seed.
Cultural conversion.
Cultural linked start loc.
SGL on.
Most aggressive AI.



No Barbs.

Our civ: India.

Opponents:

China

Inca

Spain

Arabia

Aztecs

Zululand

Maya


screen1.jpg

screen2.jpg
 

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freakystuff

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Glad to see an expert I recognize already. I know you like Iroquois no barbs. Yes the run for 1 2 lux is so important and could be not easy to reach. And no pottery.
 

freakystuff

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I just created another start with similar settings, except with all victory conditions enabled.
One start should work. I am attaching the saves of both starts for people's enjoyment.
screen3.jpg

screen4.jpg
 

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LKendter

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These are awesome starts!
 

Spoonwood

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These are awesome starts!

True. But, I've played with starts like these on 60% pangea with some other tribes (I guess this is 70% though I doubt that will make a difference), and the tech hole is soon enough huge. Well unless I start pillaging roads.
 

Spoonwood

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There's enough cows in both starts to get a 4 turn settler factory going *without* building a granary. If I remember correctly, only 3 of the cows would need watered, though maybe 4 would.
 

Spoonwood

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I load it with the C3X mod. I suggest players not using this mod might be grinding in ways that they don't like which aren't necessary any longer.

Edit: I checked the move order by starting a game and retiring. I assumed/misremembered that the move order is top to bottom on the frenemies list. It was bottom to top when I checked!

0 - 4000 BC Move the worker to cow. Worker moved in way I didn't like. Change preferences. Biggest change is show wonder initiation pop-up. Don't you want that information about what the AI is doing to better plan or better understand them? Check the spaceship screen/frenemies list. It looks like the list above. So, China moves and builds first, if my memory is correct. Then Inca. And so on. I think China is also most likely to discover techs first, except when we learn something first someday. Someday. Someday. But, not any day soon. Maybe?

Look at bonus grassland on the river.

Plant fit. Our local peoples exercise out in the wilderness. We also like foreigners who can manage to bring us resources or luxuries while showing us that they are strong or at least hardy. When they don't, we reserve the option to deny what we pay them in gold for years. Consider researching pottery in 30 turns. Recheck list. 5 know pottery. 5/7 probability of our first contact knowing pottery. Have Alphabet. 5 turns for a warrior. Try to think about pottery's maximum self-research time at this level. Decide against analysis of that. Citizens like walking in the wilderness, hardy folk that they are. Set research to The Wheel at 0%, on the unlikely hypothesis that this has some affect on our neighbors learning it.

1 turn workers in despotism? 4 turn granary less settlers in fit? Have 5th cow for 2nd city for a few settlers. Like 1 turn workers. 1 turn workers push our advantage.

1 - 3950 BC Irrigate worked cow on river.

Look at bonus grassland on the river. Maybe our hardy citizens will tolerate a little civilization development there in the form of a unique road there?

2 - 3900 BC Someone asks us about why someone has drawn these funny hieroglyphs. We tell them the gods told our prophet that if we walked over our cows they will smite them. If we walked over the trees, we would feel the pain of wood. If we walked over our mines, they would smite the mines. They told us that walking over this area would make us stronger. A new form of exercise for our hardy people, for a bit of a change from their hardy ways.

3 - 3850 BC Check finish time on worker irrigation. Look at map. Our prophet says that they are more people south than north. Someone objects. Our prophet surprisingly says he's not entirely sure, but in previous lives more often than not he's found more people south than north in our world. Prophet then thanks the objector for his criticism and says it's a good one.

Press G. Hmm... the new setting might be more useful for understanding the map, even though it's coarse.

4 - 3800 BC Talk to our worker leader. He promises that his team is almost finished.

5 - 3750 BC Warrior leader starts moving out of our city. Our prophet stops him and tells him to go south. Our warrior leader does so. He tells us that we might be happy with gems. "Yes." Says our most trusted philosopher. "But what if someone else would be even happier with gems?" Our counter asks him how many gems there are. Our warrior leader says that he needs more time on this. Start training another leader of warriors. Worker leader moves his team to some patch of cows. Out liaison with the common people tell us they don't smile much, but he doesn't see frowns. Raise luxury slider 20%.

6 - Raise luxury slider to 40%. Think about 70%. Start doing calculations in my head. An irrigated grassland cow gives 5 food. Agricultural +1. 2 bonus from the irrigated cow. ...

20 food in the box without a granary, 10 with a granary. 2 food from the center. 4 from an irrigated cow. 3 from a mined cow. 2 + 4 + 4, 10 food, but I remember 2 cows doesn't work for 2 food. 4 food getting eaten. 2 food eaten per citizen. 2 extra food from irrigated cow. 1 extra food from mined cow. 3 extra food from city center (agricultural +1 on river, 2 default). 5 surplus food from irrigated cow at size one now making sense. 7 surplus food from 2nd irrigated cow. What? Check city center. It has two food! Oh, we're India. I knew that, but the purple is also the Iroquois color, and I was thinking about them. It was 4 surplus food at size 1, from irrigated cow. 6 surplus from two irrigated cows. 4 irrigated cows is 10 surplus food. For 5 shields per turn at size 4. 7 shields per turn at size 5 with a mined bonus grassland. 8 shields per turn at 6 size, not needing to mine a bonus grassland. Plus 2 from the forest. Oh, this save comes out of nowhere.

Check if production is emphasized. It's not. Well, it's easier to play without it checked, instead of rearranging tiles periodically. We could mine that bonus grassland, BUT that takes longer to get up to 10 shields per turn for a 1 worker pump. It's 9 more turns. This is Sid anyway with desired careful play. Emphasize production. Check this city before ending any turn. It's one city, and a powerful one.

Worker leader has his team irrigating.

Warrior leader tells he's thinking one gems only.

Consider dropping luxury slider. Decide against it. Better safe than sorry on happiness, even when not playing for score.

7 - 3650 BC Warrior leader talks about seeing deer east of cows. And a plains. Settling on plains is better for growth eventually. But, production might be weaker than settling on regular grassland. 3 turns to palace expansion. Laugh while looking at worker irrigating. Guessing grassland between cow and deer is better than plains for easier development. See hill on river. I like planting on hills, as it increases food, and lots of mountains near there anyways. Would be CxxC instead of CxC from cow-deer city. Remember getting ahead of myself on planning cities spots on this level, because of AIs wanting to plant there.

Check worker finish time as I see and remember 2nd cow is not on a river, and the bonus grassland of this one special road can get built. And our warriors can stomp. And our workers can build in a ritualistic fashion. Tell citizens to go to there promising of some ritual. They are so baffled, that they give us a single gold for free.

8 - 3600 BC Move citizens back to cows so they can eat more. Send new warrior leader east. Think about 3 warrior leading to negative gpt once settler is built. Finally remember roads making up for that. Only need to get some gold to get some gpt from the AI. Can use temporary tax collectors (they go back to their tiles before the turn ends) to get gpt for luxuries/resources and tech/lump sums. Can't maintain control of those luxuries without real gpt though because of ritualistic stomping of warriors. But, such stomping comes with a reputation hit to frenemies, so frenemy A can't/is less likely to trade with frenemy B? Don't necessarily need all of the possible luxuries/resources every way, and real gpt comes soon after. Unit support seems like less of a concern, so start thinking about pushing 2nd settler to the last minute.

9 - 3550 BC See flood plains and desert and we're not agricultural. Well, oil could be close. Think about scouting. Remember Spanish as frenemy (and how more needs defended because of conquistadors if fighting them). Coastal scouting with warrior might just work. Check them in the frenemies list. They are third. No. I disagree. Ideally they would be last, if they trade last. Well, their turn has to be last, and their trade on their turn like the human player, right? Think about UUs of AIs. China having a powerful one for AIs, I guess? They have the move initiative, which since AIs are on even level, heavily favors the first mover. Check civiliopedia for Arabia and ansar warrior, and see once again it has 3 movement at 60 shields. Arabia is fourth on the frenemies list. Still think China becomes a super power on this map if they can get horses and iron. Not sure I like playing with super powers. Consider dropping map. But, a super power can do research. But, I don't know how a Chinese super power would fare at research in the industrial age comparatively speaking. I don't know the terrain. China could still end up weak comparatively, because of bad terrain, but I think it unlikely due to the strong advantage of moving 2nd, and their UU. Fit says 2. Check worker again. It grows next turn.

10 - Worker leader moves his team to another cow. Raise luxes to 50%. Move worker to cow nearest coast. Irrigate next turn. Then, without a road, move it to the nearest cow, and irrigate and road that. I think that the best time for the first settler to come out is when fit grows from size 5 to size 6. It would drop back to size 4 then at 2 turn growth. The best spot for the second city seems not between the deer and cow, but one tile at the '9' spot from it (north) on regular grassland. I wouldn't bother mining all of those tiles. The bonus grassland near it, of course, but our warrior leader insists on stomping ritualitstically as healthy for our economy. Our prophet agrees with him, and the gods told us that our prophet is a visionary.

For why I'm talking about stomping, it's a means to unlock the economic and in part the technological potential of the AIs. Unlocking some of the economical potential of AIs can also get achieved by selling technologies after stealing technology from an AI as happened in Betazed's Ad Astra Per Sid game. Also, by being the first to discover a technology. My old photobucket screenshots have reappeared. For more information with an example see here. There's also a Sid domination game for AnthonyIII around here somewhere. The ideas involved have gotten developed by Lord Emsworth, and date back to some post or posts by Microbe. Drazek noticed 1 turn worker pumps first.

The Xs in the picture are where roads do not go. The O is where a road goes. Every other square can use a road like normal, with roads going to a frenemy first perhaps.

Given that we feel comfortable with control of the game later perhaps, I will feel comfortable with roads around the capital. Soren Johnson the designer of civ's III AI said that the game's design is so that the human player can always win or at least understand why they lost. Because of that, I do feel it fair to use such ritualistic stomping. It is an extremely powerful tool combined with resource and luxuries.

And it can be a lot of fun to get very rich, very smart, and very powerful.
 

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Spoonwood

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Correction: the move order is bottom to top on the frenemies list. The Maya move first on top of the growth edge. I think their production is calculated first. Two advantages in wonder races. They have the attack initiative given that they can overcome the defense handicap, which they can, especially since they can use artillery type units. They have the trading advantage, since they can learn technologies first and sell them to other AIs also, by ringing up their frenemies first. Since we have culturally linked start, they have Aztecs and Inca as their neighbors, both having the growth edge of agricultural. The Aztecs are still high up in the move order. I'll guess that the bulk of the wonders will be built in their area. Their also be the fastest researchers. The military advantages of China thus may well get countered by their worse position.

Are China and Arabia are closer in culture according to civ III to India than anyone else on this list? China on maximum aggression at Sid level as your neighbor. Yikes! Last in the move order though.

20K: With palace prebuilding I started thinking about it, but need Masonry first for that. I have feared losing a 20k game on a pangea map, or needing to kill off AIs to keep them under control so that they don't launch, like a histographic game. That much isn't necessary, come to think about it. Great Library is possible at this level, but I didn't start on Writing. Also, the AIs sometimes research literature. Can keep 250-299 shields in the box once we have Masonry if a wonder race is lost early, for when the next one comes, or for when a successful army victory gets achieved by dropping shield production to 1 by changing citizens to specialists or irrigated grassland. For a 600 shield wonder, about 350 cost for us, while the AI has 240 cost. Better tile selection for us. Still need a way to get techs sooner rather than later. Might push palace cost up to 400 shields with ICS spacing before much war, I guess. Saw old note that maximum aggression means that they won't build infrastructure, and no one scientific. Pangea Sid 20k ever attempted or won? Oh, ignas had tiny pangea sid 20k I think in the HoF. Drazek's game too, iirc. Both with Persia and two frenemies.

Space: No free techs from the AIs. We are commercial and thus could have faster research than average. No one else is, so a friend or two would have lower than average potential for research. Probably would want to gift them luxuries for more we love the leader days to reduce their corruption. I read, I think, Ozmandius saying that maximum aggression means infrastructure deficit. Pushing out a fast space race is a deeper game than even histographic in my opinion.

If the road to your capital gets stomped on, and you're supplying a luxury to an AI with the square not in your capital's fat X, do you still supply the luxury to the AI? I don't think I checked on that, and if it does cancel your trade route since the capital isn't on the trade network, you then would take a reputation hit. So, no gifting luxuries to friends if you use the stomping technique/disconnect-reconnect trick?

Diplomatic: Maybe. Not as deep as space. Kind of relaxing to finish the game this way. Remember playing for 20k once on Sid and then ending with diplomatic instead. This must be it.

100k: I think this was more fun than I expected when playing some HoF games. Looks like 20-30 hours for some games in the HoF. Maximum aggression meaning less/later infrastructure, implies less culture from AIs.

Domination: I see a save of Sid game where I planned on histographic and took domination. I see another save, where I also remember playing for histographic and then taking domination instead.

Conquest: I did this a few times on a Sid large map.
 
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Spoonwood

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Checked civilopedia on wonder cost again. Remembered Sistine Chapel and Bach's Cathedral are 600. But, Copernicus's Observatory is 400, and so is Newton's University. If we had a prebuild at say 250 shields, it's 150 shields for us to complete the wonder, while 160 shields for the AI! We have the advantage of going first also in the build production order. I've never lost a wonder race with 1 turn left. And better tile selection. The human player always moves first. Knights Templar is 300 shields. Shakespeare's Theater is 450 shields. The 40% discount for AIs means that's 180 shields for the AI. That might also be possible. Sistine Chapel and Bach's Cathedral would be 240 shields for the AI. I'd advise against trying for those. My guess is that they are more likely to result a wonder race loss, with us having more shields than the palace in the box, so needing to build something non-cultural.

I forgot about investigating cities. Investigating any wonder city as soon as it starts and checking tile selection, can help us predict whether we can win that wonder race or not. And by the middle ages, we'll likely be able to afford such investigations.

Sirpleb in an excellent all victory condition game showed that a few medieval wonders and cultural buildings were sufficient for a 20k victory. But, of course, we could get more culture than that and have a faster finish date.
 

Spoonwood

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How to know how many shields are in a palace pre-build exactly:

1. Pick a unit. Swap prebuild to that unit. The advisor will tell you the overrun. Add the cost of the unit to the overrun. That will tell you how many shields you have in the box exactly. 270, even 280 shields might be a better number to swap to 1 production. Once the leader is one tech away from a wonder we think worth it, maybe even 290 might be o.k., so long as we swap to 1 tile production immediately then.
 

Bartleby

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If you switch the pre-build to wealth, the advisor will tell you the number of shields without needing arithmetic.
 

Spoonwood

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If you switch the pre-build to wealth, the advisor will tell you the number of shields without needing arithmetic.

I'm seeing now in the C3X mod that there's a number of shields for the current build.

For version 1.22 I have an aqueduct costing 100 shields to complete, with 10 shields per row, and one line filled and two shields more, for 12 shields total. Switching to wealth would waste 11 shields according to my advisor. So, version 1.22 players still need arithmetic for an exact number.

Each row of shields in the box appears to be 1/10 of the total cost in all cases which have a multiple of 10 as their cost.
 

Spoonwood

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One of the techniques I've used in Sid games has been the following:

1. Set builds in cities to horsemen/horseman, with iron and saltpeter unhooked.

2. Rehook iron and saltpeter with workers.

3. Finish that turn.

4. When a city completes the horseman/horsemen build, zoom to the city, and then upgrade the horseman/horsemen to a knight or cavalry.

Then one has a 70 shield knight or 80 shield cavalry for the cost of 30 shields + the upgrade cost (5 gold per shield?). My recollection is that one does not have to have the iron or saltpeter in one's empire for this to work. Trading for iron or saltpeter, doesn't change a horseman build to a knight of cavalry. But, my recollection might be incorrect. The reason for zooming to the city lies in that if you let the horseman build complete without zooming to the city, and upgraded the horseman when you can then move units around, you have to wait until the next turn to use the knight or cavalry. If you upgrade the horseman using the zoom function, the knight or cavalry is ready to go immediately on your next turn.

I remember thinking that once you get Jumbos with India, you can never build horseman again. So, that means you can't use such an upgrading technique. Will try to find a save to check on that.

Edit: I found some saves of sanabas for an emperor 100k game with India, but India never even learned Feudalism. Remember seeing India one of the most least frequently used civs for HoF games when I saw a relative frequency graphic (pie chart?). See a Beemmeuppy save using PtW, not sure I want to try to load that. See a Large Diplomatic Emperor with India save on a rather competitive table, with Marsden's save in 10th place.

Load save, see Jumbo, and saltpeter and iron hooked. Notice he's exporting saltpeter to the Mongols. If I recall correctly, if you export one of your strategic resources or luxuries to a friend, and then disconnect the trade route to your capital, you no longer export the resource or luxury, and thus take a reputation hit. Find one saltpater and have a horseman pillage it. Think about checking reputation with Mongols.

1. Mongols have 8 gold. Think about signing a military alliance with them. Then see 2158 gold in the bank. Gift Khan 2158 gold. Offer 10 gpt for 180 gold. Khan would take it. He won't take 181 gold.

2. Look for other saltpeter, looking at trade advisor screen, then seeing I hovered over that source. No unit is in range of pillaging the saltpeter this turn. I can send a jumbo do that next turn, and do so. Change settings, click next turn.

3. Look at Details in F4 screen, seeing now that there's 12 turns left on some deal with saltpeter and silks going to Khan. Pillage out the saltpeter. Check F4 screen and see saltpeter still getting supplied to Khan. See in F2 screen no saltpeter locally. Also, no saltpeter seen in city strategic resource area. Use Ctrl + Shift + M to try to see if I can find any saltpeter. See one, but can't pillage out saltpeter this turn. Nope, I mis-estimated, jumbo made it.

4. Pillage saltpeter. Lose supply of wines. Recall Khan importing us some luxury in the deal. Offer Khan 1 gpt for 18 gold. So, India took a reputation hit by failing to deliver of supplying the saltpeter. Khan won't even take one gold for 1 gpt. Look for source of iron. Pillage iron near Karachi 2. Check in Karachi 2 and don't see horseman as an available build. Horses still supplied. The available builds are settler, worker, warrior, explorer, longbowman, war elephant, trebuchet, galleon, rifleman, and palace in that order. This confirms that India can't build horseman once it learns Chivalry.

But has India had a golden age?

5. Save game. Motivation for war: Need to check about India having a golden age. See 3/3 cavalry. Not sure there's enough jumbos in the area, but somewhat likely I think for a victory this turn. Jumbo defeats 3/3 German cavalry. No golden age for India. Check wonder screen, thinking about looking for wonder builds which triggered India's golden age. See that the Pyramids in Ur owned by India. Ur is a Babylonian city without renaming iirc. Find Ur. See Sumerian cities in it. Oh, Ur was a Sumerian city.

Conclude that India loses its ability to make horseman the moment it learns of Chivalry.

What did they say about using India in Sid Vicious and the Magnificent Seven? The war elephant has an extra hitpoint, but requires more cash to produce quickly since upgrading is less expensive than purchasing, if I recall correctly.

I don't think that the techniques of disconnecting and reconnecting one's capital were developed when they played Sid Vicious and the Magnificent Seven. You can get things like war happiness, get civs to declare on another so that your enemy doesn't sign a military alliance against you. thousands of gold, tens and even hundreds of gold per turn, you can close the production gap (T-Hawk talked about the importance of closing the production gap to win on Sid a while back).

War has its uses to increase the cost of the palace for a prebuild in a 20k game, for more commerce if one wants to do research, for more territory for a 100k game.

Wars sound more costly with India than any other civ. Does it sound like fun to play with India in light of the horseman-cavalry costing 30 shields instead of 80, a cost discount of 3/8, while AIs have a cost discount of .4, 4/10? (3/8) * (10/10) = 30 / 80, while (4/10) * (8/8) = 32 / 80. This means that the production gap gets overcome for producing cavalry via upgrading. For knights, (3/7) * (5/5) = (15 / 35) for the human player, (2/5) * (7/7) = (14/35) for the AI. The production gap isn't overcome, but it's close.

Why choose India? What advantage or story potential that they have makes them an appealing choice? It sounds more appealing to play as any other civ than India, though maybe I missed something.
 
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Spoonwood

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I can't play any more turns without spoilers, since I decided to pick this up and try as a solo 20k attempt.

My recollection is that it's always 100 gold for one of their workers in games I play. I ring up someone in my 20k attempt, and it's 128 gold for a slave. My guess is that the aggression level increases the cost of buying a worker. I think I've seen workers at like 116 gold at normal aggression level before?
 

Spoonwood

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It's 1 gpt for 14 gold for the game with these settings. It has maximum aggression. It's 1 gpt for 18 gold with minimum aggression so far as I know.
 
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