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Sidar Plus

Discussion in 'Fall Further' started by xxHammerxx, Jun 22, 2009.

  1. xxHammerxx

    xxHammerxx rage monkey

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    The Old Post

    Spoiler :
    The Sidar are a very cool race, and are wonderful to playwith. However, I have found that more oft than not they are neglecting their flavor while under AI command. While this "may" partially be an AI problem I see ways we could use the mechanics to make them favor the assasin theme anyways.

    My main Idea is to make assasins more common and melee less common, and tangent ideas are to make hidden and stealth more accessible.

    I think for the Sidar axemen, champions, and phalanxes should cost double, while assasins and shadows cost half. My idea to implement this would be to either give more expensive melee UUs or to give a training yard UB that gives -70% productionspeed for axemen, champs, and phalanxes.

    For the ghost, simply half its hammer cost, and as for the Shadow, they need a new Shadow UU anyways. Their UU will be Called (its silly for civs to have Knights if their not in a fuedal system. Why are mercenaries not called Ronin?) Mistwalker, and he will automatically start with the explorer promotion, as well as additionally having the waterwalking promotion.

    (but for the record using terms like Ninja and Samurai are just as likely as Pirate and Knight)


    now for the tangent idea for more use of hidden, stealth, and other uses for these mistwalkers. I think all Sidar units should start with the promotion "Mist" which grants +10% withrdawal rate and +2 first strike chances. A second promo should prereq combat 5 and mist, and be called Haze, which gives an extra 5% (or 20%) withrdrawal and grants the "stealth" ability. Units must buy Haze as a level up, its not an auto-aquire. as assasin units already get stealth, I would ask only those units already with stealth gain the massive 20% extra withrdrawal from Haze, although Im not sure thats possible so a middle ground value may be nessecary.

    Mist can allow much more as well. With Shadow II and Mist, arcane units are allowed the Spell "Mistwalker" which gives the hidden promotion to all arcane, recon, archer, and beast units in the stack. It also allows "Unveil" which removes the hidden promotion from these same unitcombat classes within the stack.
    The idea is that once in place, its sometimes better for the whole army to be visible rather than just those that have attacked or casted a spell.

    With Mist and Nature II a spell is unlocked called "Mist Speak" which reveals a 24 square block (about the size of a city BFC) and reveals any rival invisible and hidden units as well.

    Mist also allows any Sidar unit to gain mobility 1 and 2 through unit levelling. If possible without the tech prereq.

    With mobility 2, drill IV, and Mist- a unit can buy promo "Explorer" upon level up.
    Unit with explorer can move on inaccesible terrain, +10% to resist spells, +10% magic resist, and immune to fear.

    Im also thinking of of waned units to be able to "call to arms" in times of dire need. Although this would seem to be a coding nightmare. If it can be implemented, for fear of being inba, perhaps it should be connected to their worldspell or something equally unscammable.

    Im thinking the Sidar should have UUs for the ranger and beastmaster.

    Im thinking Yamabushi and Ki-master, respectively. They would not use animals (probably) nor have the combat bonus against animals. Instead they would have -1 attack and +1 defense, a bonus vs melee units, and a bonus defending against ranged bombardments. Perhaps Ki-master to also have a flat bonus against archers as well. Also, both units would immune to defensive strkes, and gain an additional first strike. Basically they would use pole combat as well as hand to hand, and use their combined knowledge of nature and the mists to be equally as good at tripping a swordsman as catching an arrow.

    Due to their honor I am thinking of giving them the guardsman promotion, and perhaps give them a special unit-specific promotion that lowers withdrawal rate and adds a defensive strike of their own, in ways of clever traps in placed, and skirmish-ambushes that trip up the advancing forces and then dissapear in the mist, only to reappear back to their own front lines in defensive formations.


    For proper "first post" record keeping, the following appears to have been decided upon.

    1. The Sidar shall have a racial promotion that gives immunity to death damage. (? as well as a withdrawal chance, imho)

    2. The Sidar should be passively invisible within their borders, until they choose not to be via a spell.

    3. All recon units for the sidar- hunter, ghost, shadow, ranger, beastmaster - should have a divided soul upon unit creation, and not have to upgrade from a hunter.

    4. The Stealth ability should give the ability to both hide and unhide (previously it has only granted the ability to hide)

    possible permanently invisible scout, which cannot attack.

    possibly adding stealth feature (ability to hide and unhide) to ranger and beastmaster

    I believe that all Sidar units should be able to aquire stealth past 6th level, and possibly (idea from Cygnus) buy immortality past 10th level. Of course, as a promo, its a ONE TIME immortality, which essentially meant they gave up the level for the extra life, I think thats fitting.

    my expanded idea on happiness (for the Sidar) influenced by Cygnus's remarks
    Spoiler :
    While the Sidar lore does state that they grow tired of what made them originally happy, their souls are slowly draining away so its hard to say that they even need happiness as much, they are better left to their own devices, as creatures of habit, than new and fancy wares. I suppose it could be represented by their buildings giving extra happiness. For instance, a happy from elder council, a happy from library, I think Alchemy Lab UB would be University, and give one happy for every 20% devoted to science. Of course, the simplest course of action would be to not alter happiness, atlhough not relying on resources may influence the builder style. In that case I would also ask that the Sidar recieve 2 happiness for each world wonder in a city, and we find more mundane ways for the Sidar to gain happiness, from their own buildings rather than religion or expansion.
     
  2. xxHammerxx

    xxHammerxx rage monkey

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    I do not know the current strength of the Defensive Trait in FFplus, although I would suggest changing Sandalphon to INdustrious/ Philosophical or Defender/Philosophical.

    however, if you wish to keep Sandalphon as INdustrious/ Defender, then perhaps a minor leader with the Philosophical trait and minor. (maybe charismatic too?)
     
  3. xienwolf

    xienwolf Deity

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    Modding is 100% free (the main reason I maintain it as my primary hobby ;)) Just download Notepad++ to make your life easier and you have have at the python and XML without any issues. Modding the DLL is trickier, but still free.
     
  4. deadliver

    deadliver Loud Mouth Amateur

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    Nearly everything you mentioned I am pretty sure could be modded in through XML. The new units, new spells, unit costs, new promotions. Once you figure out what the tags mean, xml modding is easy peezy.

    The thing with waned units would probably need python? Guys, is it possible to make a spell that removes specialists from cities?
     
  5. xienwolf

    xienwolf Deity

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  6. deadliver

    deadliver Loud Mouth Amateur

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    So it would need just a minor python change to allow sidar to pull specialists from their cities? Could you restrict it to waned specialists only without making new Specialists just for Sidar?
     
  7. Vermicious Knid

    Vermicious Knid King

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    Here's the code:


    Code:
    def reqKidnap(caster):
    	pCity = caster.plot().getPlotCity()
    	if pCity.getTeam() == caster.getTeam():
    		return False
    	i = 0
    	i = i + pCity.getFreeSpecialistCount(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPECIALIST_GREAT_PRIEST'))
    	i = i + pCity.getFreeSpecialistCount(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPECIALIST_GREAT_ARTIST'))
    	i = i + pCity.getFreeSpecialistCount(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPECIALIST_GREAT_MERCHANT'))
    	i = i + pCity.getFreeSpecialistCount(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPECIALIST_GREAT_ENGINEER'))
    	i = i + pCity.getFreeSpecialistCount(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPECIALIST_GREAT_SCIENTIST'))
    	if i == 0:
    		return False
    	return True
    
    def spellKidnap(caster):
    	pCity = caster.plot().getPlotCity()
    	if pCity.getFreeSpecialistCount(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPECIALIST_GREAT_PRIEST')) > 0:
    		iUnit = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_PROPHET')
    		iSpec = gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPECIALIST_GREAT_PRIEST')
    	if pCity.getFreeSpecialistCount(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPECIALIST_GREAT_ARTIST')) > 0:
    		iUnit = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_ARTIST')
    		iSpec = gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPECIALIST_GREAT_ARTIST')
    	if pCity.getFreeSpecialistCount(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPECIALIST_GREAT_MERCHANT')) > 0:
    		iUnit = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_MERCHANT')
    		iSpec = gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPECIALIST_GREAT_MERCHANT')
    	if pCity.getFreeSpecialistCount(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPECIALIST_GREAT_ENGINEER')) > 0:
    		iUnit = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_ENGINEER')
    		iSpec = gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPECIALIST_GREAT_ENGINEER')
    	if pCity.getFreeSpecialistCount(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPECIALIST_GREAT_SCIENTIST')) > 0:
    		iUnit = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_SCIENTIST')
    		iSpec = gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPECIALIST_GREAT_SCIENTIST')
    	iChance = caster.baseCombatStr() * 8
    	if iChance > 95:
    		iChance = 95
    	pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(caster.getOwner())
    	if CyGame().getSorenRandNum(100, "Kidnap") <= iChance:
    		newUnit = pPlayer.initUnit(iUnit, caster.getX(), caster.getY(), UnitAITypes.NO_UNITAI, DirectionTypes.DIRECTION_SOUTH)
    		pCity.changeFreeSpecialistCount(iSpec, -1)
    	else:
    		if CyGame().getSorenRandNum(100, "Kidnap") <= 50:
    			caster.setXY(pPlayer.getCapitalCity().getX(), pPlayer.getCapitalCity().getY(), false, true, true)
    		else:
    			caster.kill(True, 0)
    		cf.startWar(caster.getOwner(), pCity.getOwner(), WarPlanTypes.WARPLAN_TOTAL)
    Not sure what Shades are defined as...haven't really played Sidar. Seems like it would be fairly easy to tweak that to do what is wanted here. Probably want it to spawn units other than great people though...they wouldn't be much use as emergency troops. :lol:
     
  8. xienwolf

    xienwolf Deity

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  9. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    Shades can be joined as any type of great person. Once joined, there isn't really a difference between them and any other great people in the city. If you want to be able to tell them apart, you'll need to make a separate version of each specialist for Shades to join as, and then you'd probably want to make wonders like the great library effect those specialists too.

    I don't know what units you would want shades to become upon calling them to arms. I'm not sure why you would want to if you don't get the promotions, xp, or levels of the original shade back, and can't think of any way you could track that.
     
  10. deadliver

    deadliver Loud Mouth Amateur

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    Yeah I figured separate specialists. As far as calling them to arms, I could see it as a last ditch effort to stop the city from falling into enemy hands. If possible they should only be able to defend as they'd probably want to get back to work after the danger passed.
     
  11. zup

    zup Emperor

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    Have you considered that a Sidar player should not wane every unit they can? Maintaining enough of a standing army should be by default. I feel the player should always have to answer the question: "If I wane this unit, do I still have enough military?" And waning should be final imo.

    The shade specialists could also have different names and maybe even different effects from normal settled great people. Using separate specialists from great people should make it easier to balance waning too.

    Divided soul is too much 'ninja' already. No more, please.
     
  12. deadliver

    deadliver Loud Mouth Amateur

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    Of course a player shouldn't wane every unit they can, unless they have a steady supply of xp coming in from fights. Even if there is no lore to back it up, using the fun > lore rule I think waning should be permanent too; however, I think you should be able to recall shades from the city for it's defense only.

    Having Sidar specific specialists? Maybe they should just have one universal specialist instead of having to choose a specific specialty. After all, GP units represent one guy while a unit represents, well a unit. This specialist would combine most of the benefits of the normal specialists but at a reduced rate (very nerfed) but also benefit from all wonders that bump specific specialists (like the great library).
     
  13. xxHammerxx

    xxHammerxx rage monkey

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    Thank you for your help :) ... and as for Shadows ...

    #1. Shadows currently look kind of bland

    #2. There can never be enough ninjas

    As to the Specialists, Shades, and Defenders, I figure all Sidar Great People will be more or less the same after awhile, although I may decide for melee specialists to produce more hammers, recon to produce more culture or gold, and arcane to produce more science.

    However, I think its better to just make an "unwane" so that Shades can be upgraded to any unit you can buy, I havent decided wether to make such upgrades cheap or costly although. And to perhaps make it where Great People can turn into Shades. Ultimately neither the Shades nor the Shadows are my primary concern, as the things at the top of my to do list are to make Ghosts cheaper and melee units more expensive, as well as get the Mist promotion up and running.

    Im not at the proper computer now, hopefully tomorrow I can start working on this :D

    a final thought from now on getting Shades back from the Great People, ultimately if I decide to add this in I suppose it would be removed anyways if it gets merged with FFPlus ... however I remember the Rise of Mankind function where u practically get a free draft once the last soldier has died with a loss of population and culture, until the enemy culture is greater or population reaches 1, whichever happens first.

    I always thought it was an interesting mechanic and I think every civ should have something like that, still, The specialists -> shades -> new units was just an afterthought, and I probably wont add it even after I LEARN HOW TO CODE :)

    however, shades that are not yet settled I could se returning them to the same form, or even any unit you have access to. It would be kind of neat for the more warlike Sidar to decide and switch professions, although again the balance/opinion issues may ultimately make it otherwise.

    above all - there cant bee too many ninjas. Although second to that is that I still havent tried the first thing of coding since Im not at my personal computer yet. Im crossing my fingers that I can actually get the hang of this coding before my parents kill me XD
     
  14. vivictius

    vivictius Prince

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    xienwolf, does Notepad++ handle all the somewhat oddly formated text files used here? Normal wordpad seems to work fine for the map files but some of the other files readable but seem to be something like a csv file (except excel isnt much better use with them).

    thanks
     
  15. xienwolf

    xienwolf Deity

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    Everything CIV that isn't graphical can be opened and read with Notepad++. Everything outside of the DLL can be completely modded with it. And all of it looks pretty nice and readable, and you can tweak it to make that even better if you want.
     
  16. vivictius

    vivictius Prince

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    cool, thanks, I'll give it a try.
     
  17. WarKirby

    WarKirby Arty person

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    I think the sidar have some flavour towards assasins, but I don't see how doubling the cost of their melee line is going to help. The proposed changes seem a little extreme. I haven't read any lore about sidar society that expresses a dislike for melee combat. Sandalphon's pedia entry is a story of him intercepting an enemy assassin, actually.

    One thing I'd like to see, is the Sidar starting with death mana, given their close ties to arawn
     
  18. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    But death magic goes against everything Arawn stands for! The Sidar abhor necromancy, and so should definitely not start with death mana, unless maybe you gave them a seperate set of promotions/spells for death, the way the scions get Corpus promotions for Body.

    In my version I'm thinking I'll give everyone an extra mana type, as well as twice as much of their patron mana. I won't be adding death to their list. I may give them 5 mana types instead of the usual 4, or give them extra spirit as it helps get great people and since they are (unbeknown to them) the servants of Laroth, the undisputed master of spirit magic. I think their 4th mana type should be Dimensional, as Shades have to be pretty attached to some obsession to want to give up their soul to extend their life to persue said interest, and as they tend to become creatures of habit who cling to their roles long past the point when they stop enjoying anything. It also seems like the Netherblade would have to use some dimensional magic to bind a soul to the Netherworld, and that the Divided Soul's ability to split its spirit in two and then pull one part of itself towards the other is probably a dimensional ability too. I may make that spell be Dimensional II in my version.


    I'm thinking that if you give them a racial promotion, it would be nice for it to grant immunity to marksman.

    The Hidden (and Invisible) promotions should really allow you to move through rival territory without open borders.

    Would it be too much if the Sidar racial promotion had a small chance to randomly grant Hidden? Some of the pedia entries seem to imply that the Sidar don't have full control of their invisibility and that they can have trouble getting people (including their friends and family) to notice them when they want to be seen.

    The pedia also indicates that when Shades are invisible their separation from the rest of the world can make others seem as much a blur to them as they are to others. What if their units could take a hidden type promotion that makes them unable to see units that aren't normally invisible? Or, maybe just reduces their line of sight.


    I'm really not a fan of any of these Sidar-as-Asian style Ninjas ideas.


    I see no reason to give the Sidar such a bonus vs Melee, or to make them weaker to animals.
     
  19. WarKirby

    WarKirby Arty person

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    I agree that Ninja as a unit sounds silly.
     
  20. xxHammerxx

    xxHammerxx rage monkey

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    So yall dont like the current art for the hunter or ghost? Cause ... thats kind of what yall are saying.

    I suppose the Yamabushi and Ki-master may be what yall are really complaining about. As they are more "asian" than the universal concept of ninja.

    On the other hand ... giving their Shadow the Shade art, without crown and cane but with a dagger, would be interesting ... hmm.
     

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