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Sids Level Tips and Questions and Answers only.

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Strategy & Tips' started by lifetap, Mar 9, 2016.

  1. lifetap

    lifetap Chieftain

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    Questions regarding sids games.

    1.) Where do you build courthouses/police station? starting on your 20th city?

    2.) One of my strategies in Republic is to do ICS, and make them POP 7 and make them not grow (so that they won't get unhappy too much). I get 1/4 army supply, 3 free maintenance for units, 3-4 taxers per city. Is this a good strat? Or is it good to make them 3-4 scientists?

    3.) I also noticed, while upgrading my cannons to artillary, aside from the 120 gold (I think?), I also lose a 4-6 gpt per upgrade. Let us say I upgraded 100 cannons to 100 artillaries, I somehow lost around 400 GPT aside from 12k Gold (Not sure). Now where might this be coming from?

    4.) and if anybody knows how to make Civ Assist work on Win10, that will be great.

    5.) How do you exactly do RCP? and how significant doing RCP in conquest? I always place my cities 2 cells apart for my first 20-30 cities.. except for 1 city who will go for Theater wonder.

    6.) Whats the strategy for Forbidden Palace? it takes long time to build, and where do you place them?

    Thanks Piu Fruedo for suggesting me to post here. Hope this starts a Sids only thread.
     
  2. justanick

    justanick Chieftain

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    It depends on the map size, but likely much earlier, more like 5th city for CH and 10th for PS. At Sid the relative value of those 2 corruption reduction buildings is maximal:

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=76619

    This is probably a bad strategy. ICS means that you increase rank corruption which is very high at Sid. In the early game you might be forced to accept few tiles per city, but in the long run(if that is relevant) you need to aim for metropolises. Unhappyness is a minor concern. Assuming you are a republic citizens working tiles produce more commerce than they consume via the entertainment slider.

    Scientists obviously have a higher output than taxmen, so using them is the better choice. But of course only if those beaker are going to be used. And usually it is better to make your citizens work tiles instead of converting them into specialists.

    I donnot know. But i am confident that those 2 occurances are not related. That is unless after upgrading you increased the research sliders at the expense of the tax slider. In that case a "loss" of 400 gtp is very natural.

    In C3C 1.22 RCP has no effect. Therefore donnot aim for it. It might still be convient to place cities in a ring alike structure, but not for reasons of (rank) corruption.

    The thing about the FP is that optimizing its placement creates little benefit. Thus it is paramount to simply have it as early as possible. So depending on many details it might be convenient to build it in a city directly adjacent to your capital. But usually building it in the second ring is the best choice. Please note that while the position of the FP is (at least on Sid) of little importance the base output of the city is not so unimportant. The FP together with courthouse and police station will reduce corruption in the city it is placed in to zero. So this city will better have a great output that will be freed from corruption.
     
  3. Theov

    Theov Chieftain

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    The only thing I can think of is the Wall Street small wonder that adds 5% to your gold reserves. So spending 120 on a cannon will make you lose 6 gold from that Wall Street interest. Its cap is 50 gpt though...
     
  4. tjs282

    tjs282 Compressed Airhead

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    Yes -- this is also a really good argument for capturing Leos, if possible!
    I've also noticed (something like) this effect when upgrading units: following an upgrade(s), but before 'end of turn', the income-prediction in the lower-right box (on the map screen) often shows a decrement of 1-2GPT per unit upgraded. It doesn't last, though: on the next turn, assuming no other major changes to my economy (SCI%/LUX%-slider adjustments, town growth, expiration of incoming GPT-deals, etc.), income goes back (up) to what it was before the upgrade(s).

    I always figured that this represented a minor glitch in the game's unit-accounting system: e.g. perhaps when one hits the upgrade-button it actually adds the 'newly-built' upgraded unit immediately, but doesn't completely delete the 'old', un-upgraded unit until the IBT, resulting in a temporary pseudo-duplication of individual units and hence maintenance cost-predictions for those units. If my hypothesis is correct, though, the decrement should simply be the maintenance-cost per unit above the free-unit cap for the current gov, i.e. 1GPT for Monarchy, 2GPT for Rep (and Demo?), 3GPT for Feudalism.

    But if you're still playing the basic game (as opposed to a mod with increased unit-costs), 4-6 GPT per unit upgraded would therefore well exceed (my) expectations, so I've no idea where that extra cost might have come from either...
     
  5. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Hmm, interesting. I've never noticed this behavior, but when I do my next mass-upgrade, I will pay attention. (But are you really sure, that it is not due to an accidental increase of the lux or science slider or something like that? :confused: I can't believe I never noticed this in 14 years of playing Civ3... And I use unit upgrades quite often...)
     
  6. tjs282

    tjs282 Compressed Airhead

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    Watch your per-turn-income prediction in the lower-right box on the main map screen. When you hit the 'Confirm upgrade' button, it may/will change. If this doesn't happen in Conquests, it may be a Vanilla/PtW thing, which later got fixed.

    But maybe we should go back on topic... I've never yet dared attempt Sid, so I'll be reading your and Justanick's contributions with interest... ;)
     
  7. lifetap

    lifetap Chieftain

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    I think its not accident.. I've noticed this many times already, but only noticed it and bothered about it now because I can share it to you guys (I'm just a new member here).
     
  8. lifetap

    lifetap Chieftain

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  9. lifetap

    lifetap Chieftain

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    What is CH and PS?
     
  10. lifetap

    lifetap Chieftain

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    I've played the three sids cotms already. cotm 55 is very very hard compared to cotm 19 (hard) and cotm 43 (which is easy).

    I'm really looking forward to tips for sids.. for deity at least? anyone?

    Settling on bonus shield or gold is good right?
     
  11. justanick

    justanick Chieftain

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    Unlike shields and commerce the food output of the city tile is does not depend on the tile it is founded on, thus settling on tiles with high food production is a great waste. Deserts make the best place to found a city on in terms of the city tile itself. The second best place to found a city is shared by plains and tundra. The third best tile is hills. Flood plains would be the worst tile to found a city on in terms if the city tile, but not founding on rivers is not the wisest choice either, so some sort of compromise might be needed.

    Tiles with high gold would be used anyway so settling on them or not settling on them makes usually no difference, but having them in the city tile itself is a somewhat convenient. Similar is true for production.

    In the short run not settling on bonus grassland has the advantage of utilizing the lower production limit of 1, but once a town becomes a city that is no longer relevant.

    Courthouse and Policestation.
     
  12. frostysh

    frostysh Chieftain

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    Greetings,

    I am like to play in PC Games, and playing only in the max possible difficulty settings, I don't like multiplayer and prefer to play against AI, and I have already finished a lot of pc games ... But in case of S. M's Civilization series I have a problem, I cannot achieve a Victory against AI :(. I want to win in CIV3 at Sid difficulty set, and then CIV4 at Deity and then play in CIV5 which I have bought already.
    I have tried to win, but the AI is tough like a bloody hell itself! Son of the preacher man beated me so hard, every time I played :(. Cannot play on lower difficulty settings.

    Difficulty: Sid
    Map Settings: Random/Default Large
    Time: Slow as Possible
    Barbarians: Max
    My Faction, Enemies: Random

    Where I can read some guides to the game mechanics, etc?
    Thanx for the answers.
     
  13. justanick

    justanick Chieftain

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    Maybe you should. Try emperor first, it is good to learn the basics while not being unreasonably easy. Once you feel safe to have mastered Emperor try Demigod. It is a lot harder than Emperor. You might try Deity aswell, but the difference between Demigod and Deity is relatively small. Only after you have master one of those 2 you should even attempt Sid which is whole new level.

    https://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/
     
  14. frostysh

    frostysh Chieftain

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    Nah, I cannot play on the lower difficulty than maximum difficulty in the PC Game, it is hard to explain :) . I played yesterday, few times in Civilization, CIVIII is far more difficult than CIVIV, as for myself, for an exception of the Barbarians, in CIVIV it is much more hard if you set up "Raging Barbarians". So I decided to play in CIVIV on max. difficulty, and with "Raging Barbarians" first, and then, when I will achieve Victory, I will try CIV3.
    Anyway, I has been defeated all times that I have tried :(, it is too many setting that you need tune up during game process, to adopt to new condition, as for myself I don't understand this "Research/Gold" stuff, when I need to make a priorities on Research, and when on Gold. And it is super hard to reach the level of spreading influence that AI playing, I mean building new cities, or warfare, or culture stuff :( . I have read few stuff from "strategy" branch, but it is not helped me.

    I cannot win, I am crying :( .
     
  15. justanick

    justanick Chieftain

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    Well, the point of Sid is that you cannot win most of the times. And if you have not even learned the basic at levels where you can learn them your chances vanish even further.

    Maybe you should write a story. If you give the audience adequate time to comment, than those comments might give you a chance to win. But that takes time and effort.
     
  16. frostysh

    frostysh Chieftain

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    Well, I have found some way in which I can play on Deity in CIVIV, with some fun, and understanding how AI playing, I just setting one AI in my team on Huge, Terra map, Speed Normal, (Climate Random, Sea Level Random, Civilization Random), and then I looking how AI is playing, and usually this games leads up to 1 000 - 1 500 AD, and then somebody attacking my Civ and destroying :). After I will play OK in such setting, I will won normal game in CIVIV, and then CIVIII :).
     
  17. BlackHat

    BlackHat Chieftain

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    Speaking of strategy articles, here's the most important strategy article a player can read, and I bet you've not seen it: https://web.archive.org/web/2004122...cs.com/doc/civ3/cracker/civ3_starts/index.htm

    As to your overall quest... I just won my first deity game (and it was not easy), am eyeing SID, and I could rewrite almost every strategy article. Give me a writing prompt like "artillery usage" or "worker usage" or "corruption" and I can give you a thorough explanation of the concept from memory. Sometimes I reread them and pickup tiny tips that help here and there or find specific formulas, but the mechanical way that the concepts are presented in the strategy articles simply no longer exist for me. They are now totally intuitive, natural concepts that lie in the background of my play, and they've been that way since mastering Emperor. The point is not to say "Oh, I'm so awesome at this" - it's to say that anything less than complete mastery of the basics documented in the war academy is totally insufficient for SID. You can't be figuring out the concept of a 4 turn settler factory, optimal worker turns, or following formulas like "courthouse after 20 cities" and expect to compete. Those questions you asked? They're really great, perceptive questions that get to the fundamentals of the game, but a player even slightly capable of beating SID doesn't need to ask those questions - they already know or can quickly develop the answer because they understand the mechanics of the game. To compete at Deity and SID you should be inventing new ways of doing things, not simply studying what others have done. Or at the very least, organically rediscovering concepts that others already know. And as great as those strategy articles are, I'm willing to bet very few of the authors ever completed a SID game. They're great articles that you should study in depth. But there is no map where you're going.

    You also generally must know several concepts that aren't mentioned in any strategy articles. Have you thought about what units to produce in the early medieval era from a city producing 10 SPT? 15? 20? 5? Do you know how to share grassland cows to squeeze an extra pop growth out of two towns every fifth turn? Do you know what a 1 turn worker factory is? Do you know how to appropriately use those workers to maximize your empire? (hint: it's more than just improving territory) Do you look for 4 turn warrior-settler combo factories? Once you read Crackers forestry operations article did you then ask how to track what tiles can still be planted and harvested for a shield boost after engineering? Do you know the weaknesses of the AI programming and how to exploit it to wear down their stacks? The precise movement rules for armies? The proper uses of explorers? These are mentioned in about 5 threads in the HOF forum, and they aren't laid out as a strategy article but as organic discussion of strategy and tactics. SID was designed to beat at least 99.9% of civ 3 players when played as the game was intended. Note that this means 99.9% of players are not fully qualified to give the kind of advice you seek. And that's ignoring the knowledge of semi-exploits. I would guess that >95% of all wins at the SID level circumvent the designers intent in at least 1 way. Mapfinder, trade route breaking, cutting resources to build obsolete units then upgrading... In fact, I'm willing to be that not a single player in the world can pick a random map on SID and win more than 5% of the time without using an exploit or semi-exploit. There is no map where you're going.

    Spoonwood, who is one of maybe five people with any claim to be the best Civ 3 player of all time, and leads the other contenders by quite a bit in my estimation, recently attempted to play a SID game without the last two devices.

    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/spoonwoods-hall-of-fame-attempts.296795/page-11#post-14647571

    He's posted two games in winnable condition, but implied that these are the best of quite a few attempts, and still hasn't posted a report of a win. His tone suggests to me that he thinks he's right on the edge of failure all the time, struggling to gain every advantage against far superior opponents one resource or tech away from having an overpowering advantage. Maybe it's not that bad. Maybe he's safely capable of winning either of the games he's mentioned and he's just pushing for deeper understanding. But I can assure you that he's very far beyond reading the strategy articles on CFC.

    I'm not trying to discourage you, just help you understand what you're trying to do. SID seems to have been meant to be nearly impossible, and it's a lot harder to develop mid game skills when you're routinely getting smashed early in your expansion phase. Expecting to be able to play on the highest level without development at the lower levels is not realistic for anyone but the most gifted strategy player. If you want to have a chance to accomplish your goal, I'd suggest you read every word of spoonwood's two HOF threads. Make a list of things that confuse you, and of the special tactics that he uses, and the statements he makes as if they are the most obvious things in the world, then try to figure each of them out for yourself. You can ask questions, but realize that you will need to do far more complex analysis than anyone will record in writing to find the right answer for SID. I can think of 5 or 6 variables for your courthouse question alone, all of which interact with each other. There is no map where you're going. By all means, come here and ask questions. Justanic provided an excellent starting place for your studies on these issues, but that's just enough to make you a competent Emperor player assuming you don't have major gaps elsewhere in your play.

    Edit:
    Just realized that the quoted poster and the OP are different. My statements are still accurate, but accidentally conflated the two.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2017
  18. justanick

    justanick Chieftain

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    Beating Deity should be quite possible then, too. Deity is the last difficulty setting that can reasonable be won even with plenty wrong choices remaining. The step from Deity to Sid however is rather steep.
     
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  19. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Thanks for the compliments Blackhat. You might want to note that as I play mostly for the HoF, I don't actually have as strong as play with less powerful starts (though I've learned a little more about them lately). Lanzelot, Kuningas, I. Larkin, Drazek, and some others, I suspect, might best me in a more game-of-the-month competition. Some of the older players like Arathorn, Charis, Gozpel, and some others might also best me in some variants.

    I did actually consult a few of the old strategy articles for ideas about those 60% pangea Sid attempts. But, you speak correctly in that many of them have weak points here and there. And even some of their sound advice for lower levels, doesn't apply that much to Sid. Especially if you try to play as a random tribe or get someone like Germany who has to somehow manage to climb out of a huge tech hole or get rather lucky with early trades and contacts. That said though there's an old thread, somewhere, I read a few years back where someone reveals a bunch of wins with them on Sid and said they made the best choice since you can get archers and swords with them fairly easily, but I believe those were tiny or small maps... edit Doc T. says they were standard sized. Though maybe you can capture The Great Library with some luck with them on larger maps. But, is getting techs from The Great Library beyond Education something the designers didn't foresee and thus too much of an exploit?

    I would recommend The Hawk's article, maybe this one by scout scout, and I really do like Moonsinger's article on the use of artillery proper/combat settlers, though it's good to know some of the spots where her advice might be weak. Betazed's Ad Astra Per Sid seemed like a good succession game played on a 70% pangea Sid (someone said it was 70% in some other thread). There's also Sid Vicious and the Magnificent Seven Plus One (but what if the AI with The Great Library had infantry in their city? What if the tribe with The Great Library was a powerful neighbor?).

    Huge maps with max tribes might not actually work as so bad, by timing their elimination and then trading for gold and techs coupled with military alliances, similar to the use of trade route cutting. Or is that too much of an exploit even though it can only work less often? But, it looks like such is legal in Game of the Month competitions. Not sure about how powerful such is on a standard map though (and I messed up The Roman game more).

    And I agree, at least without the trade route cutting exploit and picking up a bunch of things that way, that in general there's no road map to win at Sid.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2017
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  20. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Also, I would recommend the bit of advice here by Lord Emsworth, though I suggest you note that in Conquests you need an artillery proper and a veteran infantry in a fortress. Though, I also recall Doc T. (not actual name) saying that he usually would wait until tanks to start a Sid war. Though, I don't know if he just got consistently lucky on steals (or maybe he would turn preserve random seed off and just reload for steals?). I think he also said that not many Sid pangea victories were public, and to this day that pretty much stands, for whatever Sid pangea victories have existed.

    There might exist an interesting trick to slow down the tech pace in the industrial age. I'm just thinking through it at this point. It's effectiveness depends in part on how the AIs mobilize for war, and I don't understand that mechanic. Doc T. briefly outlined the "Vassal State" strategy in an old thread:

    "Just be creative - declare on Cathy, sign in England or Dutch, and surround the last Russian city with units until the MAs run out; that should keep the AIs in wartime mode. Found a useless chunk town in the N tundra, and gift it to Russia the turn before you declare - and use this as last retreat."

    So, I think the idea of the "vassal state" strategy goes roughly as follows.

    1. Have one tribe around when the AIs get Nationalism or soon thereafter.

    2. Get them down to an OCC, and surround that city with units (preferably as many armies as you can get that won't get attacked).

    3. Sign military alliances against that tribe with everyone else.

    4. Now, if the AIs you have mobilize against that vassal state tribe, they can never build factories or coal plants or industrial or later age wonders (except, I think, the U. N.). They can't also build stock exchanges or any new infrastructure in cities or towns that they capture. Their culture also gets cut in half. So, they can only win if they declare on you too early, but you have to hope against then anyways usually.

    5. The difficulty would be war weariness... but maybe you can afford a second revolution once it gets bad?

    6. You eventually build factories, coal plants, and mobilize. So, you have factories, coal plants, and mobilization while the AIs only have mobilization and their production bonus. And, you're probably better at modern war than the AIs.
     

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