Siege is super important!

[Sincro]

Ok ok, it's not like that thread title is in any way a revelation to any regular player of Civ, or reader of this message board, but I just had one of those games which proves the concept.

I have been playing a *lot* or huge, pangaea, marathon speed games lately, and while I normally do rush a close neighbor, especially if it's someone like Shaka who will cause nothing but problems later on, I normally hold off on all warring until the age of maces, trebs, and crossbows, with some horse archers, pikes and knights (if I wait extra long) thrown in.

But today I wanted a nice quick game, so I rolled up a normal speed tiny map, took Zara as my leader, and rolled De Gaulle and Monty as the opponents. It was a tiny map, so naturally I hooked up horses and copper and then built nothing but units, with a breather to build 4 barracks in between killing De Gaulle and Monty. I fought at tech parity the whole game, which ended in 275 AD, but the shocking thing to me was the kills:losses ratio. I actually lost more units then I killed, even accounting for the 7 animals I killed during the exploration phase. I lost 47 units to kill 39 non-animals. (I lost a scout to a lion, and later another scout killed a barb warrior, go go woody 2!!) Normally when I play and look at the stats at the end of a game, I've lost a ton of siege units, since I view em as expendable suicide units, but a pittance of regular units. And the total numbers bear this out. My most recent victory saw me kill 125 units of all types versus losses of 43, of which 17 were cats and 4 more were trebs. And that ratio is pretty standard for me. If anything, it actually gets worse (better?) as the game gets later because cannons, if beelined, are silly overpowered, while airships, fighters and bombers cause enormous amounts of collateral damage with very little risk of actual loss of a unit, especially when they first come out.

So, I guess a question is, do a lot of you see your total numbers coming closer to the 3:1 kill ratio, or 1:1? While the answer is probably going to be: If you see those numbers you need to move up in difficulty, I don't like the micromanagement that higher levels of Civ demand. I just like to play.

 

[Deepsix]

You don't say what level you're playing at. I play Noble, and taking siege out of the equation I'd say it's about 2:1. I don't consider Noble to be a high level but micromanagement is one of the reasons I love the game so much

 

[jgroth1978]

No SoD is complete without siege. They definitely put the odds in your favor, and produce a better kills to loss ratio. I'm playing as Spain on warlord level (terra map), and I destroyed the Maya, thanks to catapults and swords. Lost very few units, too. I'll see how this game goes, and then maybe try my hand at noble...

Anyway! Your post says it best... siege is very important.

 

[fathertuck]

I read the headline and thought I'd post a comment since I totally agree with you that siege is super important in this game. But I think there is one exception to the rule and that's when playing as Zara (as you did). The Oromo Warrior is such a great UU that you don't need any siege when going on the offensive, just make sure you build enough of them and that you have adopted vassalage or some other civic that upgrades them. This is a winning tactic on pangea, slingshot liberalism, take gunpowder and start pumping Oromo Warriors and go kick some ass. You will lose a lot of units, but not as many as your opponents.

I had my best game (on emperor) up to date building nothing but Oromos:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=383806

 

[lymond]

^^^now try Oromos and bring along some siege next time and see what happens

Oromos are a great unit but difficult timing on higher levels - at which point siege is still pretty necessary. You will save a lot of Oromos that way. Sure, At lower levels you get such a lead that they will walk over everyone.

 

[obsolete]

No SoD is complete without siege.

I refuse to build any siege, and I highly doubt my mounted SoDs are not complete because they are missing it.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I refuse to build any siege, and I highly doubt my mounted SoDs are not complete because they are missing it.

I bet you're willing to make use of the airships you eventually get from physics (which you like beating the AI to for the GP) though.

 

[Ataxerxes]

I refuse to build any siege, and I highly doubt my mounted SoDs are not complete because they are missing it.

For a Mounted SOD I often try to use Espionage and City revolts. Siege does slow you down. As TMIT noted, afterr you can build Airships and then planes siege is no longer very useful.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

without seige, you really need a tech advantage, generally gunpowder.

 

[vhhawk]

I'll say it's important. Decided to jump up to Monarch yesterday with Ramesses. Rolled up a semi-isolated start on an island with Catherine. Fortunately I had horses and I started cranking out War Chariots and rolled her cities easily... until I reached her last city, on a hill, fortified with archers with two hill promotions. She destroyed everything I had at better than a 3:1 ratio. Meanwhile my units went on strike because I staked everything on a quick win. If I only had a couple of catapults for barrage and suicide....

 

[TheMeInTeam]

without seige, you really need a tech advantage, generally gunpowder.

That or a VERY early rush, or coastal targets with naval bombardment.

 

[jgroth1978]

Yeah, siege is slow, but totally worth it. And things like aerial or naval bombardment are just extensions of the siege concept.

 

[obsolete]

I bet you're willing to make use of the airships you eventually get from physics (which you like beating the AI to for the GP) though.

I'm the last to physics since Scientific Method cuts my science power in half (what a paradoxial name). Instead I go up the military line until there is literally nothing left to research but the tech nerfer.

 

[Nick Carpathia]

Obsolete, you're nuts. Advocating wonder spamming, forgoing Communism and Biology for the Great Library and Monasteries. The only explanation for your ability to beat diety is that other aspects of your play compensate for others.

I'm not a fan of Airships, it's nice to to drop a 4 defenders down to 80% strength, but it's no use against the initial stack of doom. I guess it's nice for Cavalry wars, when you can't lug around cannons and you can use their down-time to reposition your 4-stack airships to newly conquered cities.

 

[jgroth1978]

Siege saves my units from dying one by one in a meat grinder. That's all I know.

 

[TheDS]

Obsolete is just an old fart yanking on your chain, echoing all the common newb wisdom. He knows as well as the rest of us that religious scientists can't wrap their heads around certain technologies (or shun it), and so the in-game effect is that they stop having a research bonus. Apparently, he doesn't have anything better to do than to razz every one in his old age.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Obsolete, you're nuts. Advocating wonder spamming, forgoing Communism and Biology for the Great Library and Monasteries. The only explanation for your ability to beat diety is that other aspects of your play compensate for others.

I'm not a fan of Airships, it's nice to to drop a 4 defenders down to 80% strength, but it's no use against the initial stack of doom. I guess it's nice for Cavalry wars, when you can't lug around cannons and you can use their down-time to reposition your 4-stack airships to newly conquered cities.

Airships have the range of bombers. It's rare that you can't put 8-12 airships on a point target. In stack vs stack battles, especially when trying to flank cannons covered by rifles or just get an edge, the damage is significant.

I can see avoiding sci meth under certain circumstances, but those bulb-crazy guys often get it pretty early.

 

[bestbrian]

I read the headline and thought I'd post a comment since I totally agree with you that siege is super important in this game. But I think there is one exception to the rule and that's when playing as Zara (as you did). The Oromo Warrior is such a great UU that you don't need any siege when going on the offensive, just make sure you build enough of them and that you have adopted vassalage or some other civic that upgrades them. This is a winning tactic on pangea, slingshot liberalism, take gunpowder and start pumping Oromo Warriors and go kick some ass. You will lose a lot of units, but not as many as your opponents.

I had my best game (on emperor) up to date building nothing but Oromos:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=383806

Try that with a human, or on a higher level AI that loves mounted (hello, Genghis). Flanking II first strike immunity lays waste to your fancy muskets.