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Siege promotions

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by ElliotS, Mar 18, 2017.

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Should Siege unit promotions be changed to be different than Archers/Skirmishers?

  1. Yes

    23 vote(s)
    88.5%
  2. No

    3 vote(s)
    11.5%
  3. Other/Disagree with Question/Framing

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. ElliotS

    ElliotS Chieftain

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    My issue with these promotions is less about balance and more about 'feel'. Having the same promotions as ranged units feels wrong/lazy. In the interests of making the project feel as professional and fun as possible I'd like to see these changes:

    Barrage changed from : "+5% RCS, +15% against wounded." to "5% RCS, +5 splash damage to adjacent hostile units." and logistics replaced with "+50% RCS to full health units." to avoid too much splash damage.

    Along with changing the siege line on archers neither line would share major promotion trees, which would feel much better than it does now imo.

    This is much more subjective than the ranged unit or naval melee unit promotions however, so I'd like your thoughts and opinions even moreso here.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  2. CrazyG

    CrazyG Chieftain

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    Well those numbers for splash damage seem way too high. Massed 3 range siege is already so strong, spalsh would benefit the 3 range much more than the earlier weapons. I could see a 4th tier giving splash damage on kills, that would be interesting and keep the damage in control. But 5 per attack per promotion just gets out of hand so easily, you are dealing massively more splash damage than regular damage.

    I use both barrage and accuracy for siege weapons frequently.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  3. Aldebaran1997

    Aldebaran1997 Chieftain

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    Splash damage in Civ V might break the game's basic combat rule: positioning high CS unit which can tank to front and high range CS unit to back. They just can shoot enemy front line to grind whole enemy line. Enemy iron-based high CS unit fortified in their Citadel? Just shoot others to tear it. 3 range siege units will do more than that. Keep shooting city then all defenders will be die. Is it okay?
     
    vyyt likes this.
  4. tu_79

    tu_79 Chieftain

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    That's why it is good to discuss things, someone may find a blind spot in your theory.
    I don't dislike current siege promotions, where one side is dedicated to city captures, and the other one is dedicated to mob control. Cannons used in battlefield main purpose was to break formations. As such, anything that:
    1. Do more damage to full health units (cannons can't aim very well)
    2. Can disturb formations (break trenches and moral, so enemy is forced to move)
    is OK for a killer siege promotion.
    Siege units are naturally good against ships, and do poorly against land units, though they can have a niche in defense with a promotion that forces a melee unit to move.

    If ever, I miss some miscellaneous promotions in lower levels. Melee has woodsman, amphibious and formation, that are very situational in most cases but add variety. Not really needed, so this is something that we can leave for last.
     
  5. ElliotS

    ElliotS Chieftain

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    the only way you're doing less than 15 damage even to a fortified unit on a citadel is if you're way outdated in tech.

    That said what if each level of barrage was changed to Bombardment: "+5% RCS, +10% RCS to full health or fortified units." (Units either not moving or larger targets are easier to hit with the less precise weapons.) and after level 3 bombardment there was a "+10 splash damage" promotion instead of logistics?

    Would that solve your problems with the first proposal and feel like an improvement over the current state?
     
    vyyt likes this.
  6. CrazyG

    CrazyG Chieftain

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    Its better than the first suggestion. Is it an improvement, IDK. I actually forget what all the 4th tier siege options currently are. I wouldn't replace logistics though

    When I said the splash deals more than the regular I was considering that splash hits more than one target. If its added I would make the splash only work when a unit dies otherwise its so exploitable.
     
  7. ElliotS

    ElliotS Chieftain

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    The 4th tier siege promotions are exactly the same as the 4th tier ranged promotions AFAIK. That's my problem. Also logistics has always seemed like the worst fit for a siege unit. I can get rapid fire archers, but rapid fire catapults seem wrong.

    Ah. I don't really see a problem with doing 30 damage to the main target and 10 to surrounding targets, even if potentially that could add up to 60 damage in a perfect and rare scenario. Being only on death would be counter-intuitive to doing more damage at full health though.
     
  8. CrazyG

    CrazyG Chieftain

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    If siege units get infiltrators that is a completely useless promotion and could be replaced. If some splash damage could be added, that is where I would go.

    Its not about occasionally hitting 5 or 6 with splash, its when I get 5 or 6 guns with this promotion that can all spit out AOE damage. I'd suggest making it on kills to limit how often it can happen, it also is closer to how the existing AOE damage effect works (Caroleans)
     
  9. tu_79

    tu_79 Chieftain

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    Doing less damage wouldn't be enough? You can just do 2 HP damage to adjacent units, for an extreme example.
     
    Bromar1, vyyt and ElliotS like this.
  10. Enginseer

    Enginseer Trade Agreement

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    Surprisingly splash damage is rather easy to code since it was already in whoward Lua DLL. I'll take a look at making a new promotion lines for siege if I have the time(unless there is enough public support for me to drastically change my mind)
     
    Bromar1, vyyt, ElliotS and 1 other person like this.
  11. Aldebaran1997

    Aldebaran1997 Chieftain

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    Oh, well. Maybe I made a little premature conclusion. I really hate EliotS' first suggestions, but now it makes sense to me too with all those discussions. How about add 'Ignore non-terrain defensive bonus' promotion to siege 4 tier instead of dealing more damage to full health/fortified units? It feels better to me if siege units break formation of land units. And I support the idea of on-kill AoE.
     
  12. tu_79

    tu_79 Chieftain

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    This gives reasons to not pick Cover ever. Siege promotion 'Siege', already affects fortified units. Woodsman and Formation still have their uses, even if a level 4 siege unit can ignore their defense bonus, but Cover would turn nearly useless.
    However, ignoring terrain defensive bonuses (maybe with a CS reduction) can be really effective. It is useless against mounted (they don't get terrain bonuses after all), it may be even worse in flat terrain, but quite good in hilly and forested areas. At the same time, it doesn't interfere with melee promotions, just to where you place the units.

    For the splash damage thing, I rarely can use more than 5 siege units against the same spot. This means that if splash damage deals extra 3 HP damage to adjacent units, this is 15 HP extra damage to perhaps 4 enemy units in one turn, assuming first target doesn't die after 5 cannon shots. Right now, Grenadier promotion is anecdotic.

    Miscellaneous promotions could do more damage against ships/embarked, and faster combat siege units (extra movement but lose extra damage against cities).
     
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  13. Aldebaran1997

    Aldebaran1997 Chieftain

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    Actually, I thought about terrain defensive bonus thing too, but it's so unrealistic because historically hiding into cover is always the best way to survive in barrages. I suggested non-terrain one because it'd be good counterpart against Cover promotion, indeed. You have to remind that almost all 4 tier promotions decrease significant amount of CS instead of getting their splendid advantages. I mean, if 'Ignore non-terrain defensive bonus' promotion decrease unit's CS as 30% or such value, it makes siege unit far less effective against no-Cover promotion units but still very good at dealing with super-tanky units. But if you think it makes Cover promotion too meaningless, maybe just 'Half the enemies' defensive bonus whether from terrain or not' will be a good alternative, imho.
     
  14. tu_79

    tu_79 Chieftain

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    Elaborate, please.
     
  15. Aldebaran1997

    Aldebaran1997 Chieftain

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    Uhm, I think siege units' main purpose is shattering enemies defense or damaging them through their cover, so they have to deal with both fortifying (non-terrain) and Fort or Citadel (terrain). If they completely ignore all type of defensive bonus, it'll be OP. Therefore, if they treat enemies' defense modifier as half than usual and are lost 25% (a little bit less than half of generic defenders' bonus (75% = fortify (40%) + hill (10%) + forest/jungle (25%), 1/1.375 = 0.727 -> 27.27% more efficient!)) of their CS when attacking, it makes them as 'defender killer' but inefficient against no-cover units or cities because of penalty, so it'll be not OP. I might be wrong with that calculation, but I think it's reasonable penalty.
     
  16. tu_79

    tu_79 Chieftain

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    I was indeed thinking about something in the same line. More simple, perhaps.

    Like ignore half of the defensive terrain bonus. You already have siege promotion for dealing with fortified units.

    Only melee, scout and ranged units benefit from terrain. Giving only half the bonus doesn't make units in defensive terrain receive more damage than those on open terrain. It isn't such an amazing bonus, either. You need to use it against a unit that can benefit and that is placed in safe terrain. Even then, the bonus is small if that terrain is just hills or just forest. It only gets better when against a unit in a forested hill. Considering that you are missing another promotion to get this one, I don't think it deserves to reduce CS.
     
  17. Aldebaran1997

    Aldebaran1997 Chieftain

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    But it makes you to punch guys in the Fort or Citadel, which have 50% and 100% each. If there is Fort on the hill and melee infantry fortified on there, it can already reduce their defensive bonus as 50%. And you can also get a great benefit against enemy siege, which always has cover promotion. I always place siege units in the terrain cover because they are tooo squashy. But with this promotion, you can deal with those siege units holding in the terrain. If you feel this is too bad, just decrease their penalty around -15%. Isn't it enough?
     
  18. tu_79

    tu_79 Chieftain

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    I see. Forts and citadels count as terrain bonuses.

    What if we just give a small flat bonus for hitting a unit that can benefit from the terrain bonuses? +10% against units in hills, +10% against units in forest /jungle, +20% against units in fort/citadel. That's a +30% in best case. Does nothing against mounted or siege units, and is useless against flat and sea tiles. Call the promotion 'incendiary'. Note: I don't want a bonus against cover promotions. Promotions against promotions is too convoluted.
     
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  19. tu_79

    tu_79 Chieftain

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    As for the other promotion, call it 'chained bullets': +25%CS against naval and embarked units. Use the same icon as amphibious.
     
  20. Aldebaran1997

    Aldebaran1997 Chieftain

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    That's why I considered about against terrain bonus.

    It's a good idea. But I think it's a little bit arbitrary. According to your comment, units in marsh, which get 5% defensive bonus, aren't affected by that promotion. If that promotion's ability is '10% CS bonus against enemy units in all type of terrain when attacking. Bonus will be doubled against Fort/Citadel.', it makes more sense to me even though I still don't know it is correct both balance-wise (no specific CS penalty tier 4 promotion) and historic-wise (siege weapon is good against terrain). I think making exception at Cover promotion with my suggestion (half defensive bonus) is better.
     

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