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Siege promotions

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by ElliotS, Mar 18, 2017.

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Should Siege unit promotions be changed to be different than Archers/Skirmishers?

  1. Yes

    29 vote(s)
    90.6%
  2. No

    3 vote(s)
    9.4%
  3. Other/Disagree with Question/Framing

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    OK, if you spare cover (or any defensive) promotion, I'd be fine with your 50% reduction for defensive bonuses.
     
  2. Aldebaran1997

    Aldebaran1997 Chieftain

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    If G doesn't see these discussion, is there meaning of our conclusion anyway? XD
     
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  3. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    I like my ideas better by the way. Just wanted to mention that I respectful disagree.
     
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  4. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    Those are just extra promotions for filling the tree (it feels a bit empty). They aren't meant to replace the basic promotions. I like your splash damage for the basic promotion, but it needs to be a rather small effect, like +10%CS +1HP to adjacent, every one, for a +30%CS +3HP damage to adjacent in total. Or make it only work after a kill, as suggested before.
     
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  5. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    I would also prefer some type of weak aoe effect to ignoring terrain
     
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  6. Aldebaran1997

    Aldebaran1997 Chieftain

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    Is splash damage's AoE only for the target and its back? Why total is only 3 times bigger than their actual effect?

    Anyway, I like splash damage too, but I think full health thing has no point. AoE damage promotion makes against full health promotion be useless immediately.
     
  7. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    Again. I'm proposing more promotions, for the sake of variety. So long we have proposed:
    1. AoE splash damage
    2. Damage against full health units
    3. Damage against naval
    4. Ignoring 50% defensive terrain

    I think ElliotS wants splash damage to be added to one of the basic promotions, thus there are three levels. I might be mistaken.

    Aldebaran has a point in that AoE and extra damage against full health don't work well together.
     
  8. StugLife

    StugLife Chieftain

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    +1 for AoE damage. Feels fresh and fits siege units perfectly. If it proves too powerful, it could replace the double attack promotion, couldn´t it?

    As a sidenote, the idea of more damage against full health units is intriguing, would make more sense for both siege and ranged units than damage against wounded, which feels more like a melee line perk. It would be neat if archers and siege units alike would do proportionally less damage the less health the target has, but maybe it is all just too much work for too little gain.
     
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  9. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    I think archers should keep + damage to wounded, and siege should get plus damage to full health if they're going to have one. (Maybe replacing logistics, then again with AoE damage most units won't be full health.)

    I don't like Archers and siege units sharing promotions.
     
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  10. Aldebaran1997

    Aldebaran1997 Chieftain

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    defensive bonus from every source except Cover promotion*
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
  11. Aldebaran1997

    Aldebaran1997 Chieftain

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    I think splash damage promotion must have only +5% CS if it is basic promotion because that promotion's main purpose is not crashing a single target, but controlling horde of enemies.
     
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  12. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Warlord

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    Is AoE damage even possible? I know it is for Carolean Grenadiers promotion but that's melee stuff. Would the kills with that AoE count for authority/Colosseum/Jelling etc? Granted with proposed 5% CS I doubt you're killing anything, but still. Still, I like the idea of siege being better against fully healthy guys and having AoE, seems like a fun way to make those two lines varied a little more.

    Will it be possible to attack bare ground with siege units if aoe gets in? Let's pretend my catapult with AoE blasts can't attack a Swordsman this turn unless I hit ground next to him. Scratching him a little is always good if I have Horsemen with +wounded damage thing.
     
  13. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

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    If I'm developing it, no since it's Lua-based.
     
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  14. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Warlord

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    No for yields or no for ground attack? I guess the second, I doubt that can allow attacking ground. It was extremely situational and AI'd probably have problems learning that so I guess it's not important.
     
  15. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Both anyway, if we're following the +5% of CS becomes splash damage, it's virtually like what 3 dmg at most?
     
  16. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    It's like grenadier promotion, its only purpose is to have wounded units you can shoot for extra damage.
     
  17. Aldebaran1997

    Aldebaran1997 Chieftain

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    What. If splash damage is weak, it must be on-hit, not on-kill. On-kill with 3 damage splash is totally garbage, imo.
     
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  18. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    For the record, splash damage is possible, but the AI is not trained to attack more than one tile. It'd benefit the human far too much to do this.
     
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  19. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Which is what I thought, the AI couldn't be trained to understand this and it would take too much combat processing for the AI to handle. Then I remembered that siege AIs are often behind melee troops and because of that they are often surrounded by their fellow troops which if you want to penetrate their defenses, you're going to want to build up some flanking bonuses which there you go, effective splash damage.
     
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  20. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    Didn't I recall you saying that the AI did have some logic for the Carolean's grenadiers? Would it be possible to add a siege promotion like that?

    This is part of why I was advocating just a tier 4 and the splash only activating on kills
     

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