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Siege Units

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by ilteroi, Sep 23, 2016.

  1. ilteroi

    ilteroi Chieftain

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    hello all,

    i'm about to rewrite the tactical AI to be a bit smarter. basically, right now what it does is to look at each target, see who can attack it and just do it. first come, first serve. i want to turn this around: take each unit, see what it can do and evaluate all the possible moves. a bit like chess but of course search depths of more than one turn are pretty much out of the question for runtime reasons.

    anyway, coming to the point. one thing that will have to go is the stupid "set up for ranged attack" mechanic. it only applies to 3 units (catapult, trebuchet, cannon) and makes the code needlessly complex. also it's a UI nightmare, how often did i fail to attack and then realized oh, need to set up first.

    so i propose to simply reduce those siege units to one movement point. makes roads more important. alternatively, they could keep their two movement points but lose one in enemy lands (sort of permanent great wall).

    opinions?

    disclaimer: of course i cannot guarantee that the whole thing will work out in the end. or that it will be noticably better than the current system. maybe simply slower :)
     
  2. ExpiredReign

    ExpiredReign Chieftain

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    If the whole exercise is simply a "try and see" experiment then sure, change the movement points. Easy enough to change it back if needed.
     
  3. XplosiveLun

    XplosiveLun A humble village

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    Let's put into beta and see if it works. Though would it be too vulnerable when retreating?
     
  4. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    Artillery-chan feels left out.



    If you're talking about removing the need to set up before ranged attack on siege-units, this would affect Sweden quite a bit, I mean that's like their main selling-point right now.
     
  5. Edaka

    Edaka Chieftain

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    Doesn't Swedish UA give +1 movement point to siege units? In that case, going from 'have to set up' with 2 MP to 'don't haveto set up' with 1 MP won't change Sweeen much, if at all.
     
  6. matlajs

    matlajs Chieftain

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    i think lose 1 mp on land unit is massive downgrade.there is maybe no diference between 1-2 mp in artilery, but 3 makes huge diference in rough terrain.
     
  7. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    It definitely changes Sweeen a lot, depending on how the issue is handled it could be a major buff, or a huge nerf.
    If movement for siegeunits is changed to 1, and Sweden still have +1 on top of that it effectively doubles the movement of the siege-units, which is quite a bit better than the current 50% increase.
     
  8. Der_Zorn_gottes

    Der_Zorn_gottes Chieftain

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    I notice the following implications:

    - The free pillage promotion moves from completely useless up to actually good
    - The logistic promotion (is it still legal for siege at all?) would become useless instead
    - If you do, better go for the option where they lose the movement only in enemy lands - bringing them to the frontlines would be so tedious otherwise.
    - How would this work together with the actual Great Wall? 0 Movement units?
     
  9. Greggy08

    Greggy08 Chieftain

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    I like the change, always hated the whole "set up" thing, and it felt stupid to have siege units move as fast as ranged. Let's try it out![emoji106]
     
  10. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I can't remember, do chariot archers still move quickly over roads even in rough terrain? If they do you could do that...makes them lose all movement from "all terrain", but then roads would give them full speed.

    I'd say the biggest issue is early warfare, getting the catapults anywhere will take forever and a day, and sometimes your window of attack is only so long.
     
  11. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Warlord

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    Not a fan of 1 movement point siege idea myself, it'd slow down early warfare too much, especially considering how tanky the cities can be and often are. Making siege have 1 movement would be horrible, because cities would become too hard to kill.

    If it's implemented then every move expends 2 move should be there only in foreign lands. If it's 1 movement everywhere, it'll be a pain. But generally a bad idea imho.
     
  12. Txurce

    Txurce Warlord

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    Agreed.
     
  13. Vermicious Knid

    Vermicious Knid Chieftain

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    Would it break anything to just make the "needs to set up" go away? No other changes, just nuke that rule.

    Siege units are still expensive. Still not optimal for anything other than crushing cities.
     
  14. mikes61293

    mikes61293 Chieftain

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    Agreed. However I don't even like the penalty in foreign lands.
     
  15. hokath

    hokath Chieftain

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    Anything that makes the tactical AI better would be awesome, ofc
    Double movement cost in enemy lands seems like the way to go because of the aforementioned issue with logistics.
     
  16. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    Is it really so difficult to adjust AI for the 'set up'? Sweden will need to change its UA for sure.

    If it is imperative, siege units could keep the 2 movement, but receive a -75% CS when defending against melee.
     
  17. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Warlord

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    I don't like it neither which is why I called it a bad idea, but if I were to choose from those two, this is the one I would've taken because it's way less restrictive.


    Alternate solution if set-up is really that bad for the AI - remove set-up requirement, but slightly lower RCS (and CS?) of those Siege units while simultaneously increasing their City damage bonus. This way they'll be worse against regular units, but the same or even slightly better against cities.
     
  18. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Warlord

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    Sweden UA change wouldn't be that bad tbh no matter what, but I'm biased because I dislike that one

    Bad idea about siege units -75% CS against melee/horses/whatever, I won't be hurt by it. I will cover them with units so they can't be reached and won't even care (unless I'm losing the war and can't put those units there, at which point one siege unit is unlikely to matter unless it's got lots of promos). AI will have the most problems with it as it can't plan its movement ahead well even after the awesome VP changes, the player will be largely unaffected.
     
  19. Finarvi

    Finarvi Chieftain

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    I like idea of double movement on enemy's land. If it might help AI then I think it's worth trying. You often move 1 tile anyway so it wouldn't be that huge change.
     
  20. ilteroi

    ilteroi Chieftain

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    in my view the "set up to attack" thing is a slightly clumsy way to prevent you from moving into range and attacking in the same turn.

    don't know if that is even needed anymore. let's see how it all turns out. thanks for the feedback.

    Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk
     

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